He is risen!

[Elok]

As always, my universe-consuming cult is open to all.

Am guessing the answer to human brokenness there involves putting enough humans in one place that they are pulled into a singularity by their own meaty gravity. Not really my thing, but thanks for the offer.

[kentonio]

I doubt I will be able to have this whole discussion with you, but for starters, I ain't guilty. That's more of a Catholic thing. We Orthodox view sin as an illness, not a crime. Naturalism necessary and inevitably implies nihilism; if the universe was generated without purpose, then there is no purpose to our existence and we are merely distracting ourselves until death.

Only if you're a massive emo and can't see wonder and incredible opportunity in life. Personally I find the idea of defining our own purpose considerably more grown up and also exciting than it all being part of some grand master plan we have no real influence over.

And no, we can't "find a meaning for ourselves." Or rather we can, but finding a meaning where none truly exists is also known as pretending, or lying. Your meaning is a pretended pattern you can see in the static if you squint.

Nope, again you're seeing it from a twisted perspective. For instance there's no preset reason why you should follow a particular career path over the course of your life, but if you find something that excites and energizes you, that path you've set out for yourself can be a hugely rewarding experience. Far more than if when you were born someone said 'You're going to be a plumber. Of course you don't have to be, but if you don't then you fail at life'.

In which case, my Christian lies have better aesthetics and make me happier than your humanist lies, so I should follow the former regardless of their truth (which I can never really know anyway).

I suspect you're being invited to the wrong kind of parties.

Seriously though, whatever makes you happy dude.

Okay, I'm going to stop there, b/c for some reason this page is perpetually reloading itself ("waiting for ib.adnxs.com" flickering rapidly in the lower corner, no matter what I do), and it's annoying as hell. It's been doing this since I came back yesterday.

*Waves flaming torch and pitchfork at our Filipino sex trafficking overlord!!*

[I AM MOBIUS]

Not really. God is true, but humans have a proven track record of making a mess out of everything.

Let's try this again:

How do you know God is true, when you can't agree on what he looks like, what he wants from his worshippers, whether there is only one of him, or lots of hims and hers in all shapes and sizes with different jobs...?

Why do you believe your version of your God, and not all the myriad others across the world...!?

[dannubis]

Well if he would get out of bed more than once a year maybe the world wouldn't be such a mess...

[I AM MOBIUS]

Let's face it, the universe is a big place - clearly he/she/it/they has his/her/its/their hands full...

[Elok]

Ken, I think we're speaking different languages here. But I'm not aiming to convert anyone. Merely explaining where I stand.

[Kidlicious]

Ken, I think we're speaking different languages here. But I'm not aiming to convert anyone. Merely explaining where I stand.

Rest assured that he's trying to convert you, which is why he judges you for trying to convert him.

[Elok]

By the by, isn't it about time for you to switch avatars? IDK how long a time period the bet stipulated, but it's really hard to have a polite conversation when I keep wanting to popeye-punch your avatar in the teeth. Even the smileys don't help much, I'm afraid.

[Kidlicious]

Only if you're a massive emo and can't see wonder and incredible opportunity in life. Personally I find the idea of defining our own purpose considerably more grown up and also exciting than it all being part of some grand master plan we have no real influence over.



Nope, again you're seeing it from a twisted perspective. For instance there's no preset reason why you should follow a particular career path over the course of your life, but if you find something that excites and energizes you, that path you've set out for yourself can be a hugely rewarding experience. Far more than if when you were born someone said 'You're going to be a plumber. Of course you don't have to be, but if you don't then you fail at life'.



I suspect you're being invited to the wrong kind of parties.

Seriously though, whatever makes you happy dude.



*Waves flaming torch and pitchfork at our Filipino sex trafficking overlord!!*

Christians define their purpose just as everyone else.

All you do is use invalid arguments until they quit talking to you.

[Lorizael]

Personally I find the idea of defining our own purpose...

Yes, it's clearly metaphysically important that individuals endowed with survival instincts by evolution are psychologically clever enough to ward off nihilism and not at all a bluntly true observation about the universe that has no bearing on anything that can be said to be objectively meaningful.

[Elok]

I believe that, in the end, there can be only two answers to nihilism: rejection or distraction. Either it's not true, or it's sort of true but hey look over there. I find distraction impossible; I am enraged by meaninglessness. So rejection it is.

[I AM MOBIUS]

Can't you just accept the fact that our purpose is still the same as all other organisms on the planet - to live and procreate. There is no bigger spiritual picture out there and God doesn't exist. It makes life so much simpler, because life is simple...

[Elok]

Well, Moby, if I accept that the "goals" of evolution should be identified as my own, for whatever reason, I would make it my first priority to gain ready access to large numbers of highly fertile and safely exploitable women. For example, I might join ISIS and start raping me some Yazidi girls. Failing that, I could probably just go through the bars near a historically-minority college. I'd almost certainly get away with it, and if we're assuming hard naturalism I don't have a particular reason not to, unless I'd get hurt trying. But those goals don't strike me as desirable.

[kentonio]

By the by, isn't it about time for you to switch avatars? IDK how long a time period the bet stipulated, but it's really hard to have a polite conversation when I keep wanting to popeye-punch your avatar in the teeth. Even the smileys don't help much, I'm afraid.

No.

Yes, it's clearly metaphysically important that individuals endowed with survival instincts by evolution are psychologically clever enough to ward off nihilism and not at all a bluntly true observation about the universe that has no bearing on anything that can be said to be objectively meaningful.

Could you say that again please, preferably with more commas and full stops involved.

[I AM MOBIUS]

Well, Moby, if I accept that the "goals" of evolution should be identified as my own, for whatever reason, I would make it my first priority to gain ready access to large numbers of highly fertile and safely exploitable women. For example, I might join ISIS and start raping me some Yazidi girls.

Let's face it, maybe ISIS are onto something?

Failing that, I could probably just go through the bars near a historically-minority college. I'd almost certainly get away with it, and if we're assuming hard naturalism I don't have a particular reason not to, unless I'd get hurt trying. But those goals don't strike me as desirable.

Well, to ensure the survival of your progeny, you basically need to stick around long enough for them to reach adulthood, so I think you're doing it right.