Bruce Jenner wants to called Belinda

[Lorizael]

So you agree that they are delusional?

JM

Not even remotely. It is not delusional to believe that your brain can be one way and your body another, because that is precisely true.

[Lorizael]

Here's a distinction between delusional behavior and non-delusional behavior in a psychological context. Take a transgender person who is anatomically female but has what is considered to be a male gender identity. Ask this person to stick his dick into a glory hole. Assuming he is not opposed to the idea of glory holes in general, his response will be to punch you in the face, because he does not have a penis and knows it.

On the other hand, look at a person with some variety of anosognosia. This person may have a limb paralyzed by stroke, for example. If you ask this person to move that limb, they will be unable to do so. If you ask them why they didn't move the limb, they will tell you something like, "Oh, I just didn't want to." That is delusion, because they believe something about their body that is fundamentally and plainly not true.

[Proteus_MST]

So you agree that they are delusional?

JM

Nope ...
both, men and women have breatss with sensitive nipples (although men are missing any milk glands).
Also, clitoris and glans penis are similar (and AFAIK linking to nthe same brain region with regards to causing orgasms).

So, if we configure a male into a form where we build a Vagina from the building materials of his body and have his glans penis form the clitoris, he isn´t delusional in getting orgasms the same way as a woman does. Similarly for his breasts.

he would only be delusional if he believed that with his new Vagina and enlarged Breasts he would be able to act as a wet-nurse to a baby or to ever be able to carry a child (on the other hand, there are many genetic women who cannot do so as well, due to congenital defects)

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Jon- just out of interest, what if advances in medical science mean we could equip those undergoing sex change surgery with the appropriate working reproductive organs that would allow them to reproduce in their new bodies? Even to the extent of getting the requisite X or Y chromosomes?

Would you then accept them as men or women in their new bodies?

[Sava]

Jon Miller's comments are a steaming pile of horse****. For whatever reason, he can't remain logically consistent. If I had to guess, I'd say that reason is an inherent bias.

[Sava]

So is Bruce going to jail for causing the fatal pile up? Will he/she require the State to pay for the procedure now?

It's unclear at this time.

In 2010, the California Legislature passed AB 2479, a law that imposed stiffer penalties — including possible jail time — for photographers who drive recklessly or block sidewalks in pursuit of celebrities and create a sense of "false imprisonment."

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-paparazzi-not-involved-in-bruce-jenner-crash-offcials-say-20150208-story.html

If the paparazzi were chasing him, they're at fault.

However, at this time, there is no indication that occurred.

If this was the result of some sort of mental breakdown, he/she should be held accountable. Though, I'm not sure if criminal penalties are necessarily in order. There's not enough information at this time to form a conclusion, imo.

The way the law reads (and I'm not a lawyer, so others would know better), it seems as if the "false sense of imprisonment" is a question of what Bruce Jenner believed at the time. Similar to how in Florida, you can get away with chasing down, attacking, and murdering a black teenager if you believe you are "standing your ground".

[Jon Miller]

Jon- just out of interest, what if advances in medical science mean we could equip those undergoing sex change surgery with the appropriate working reproductive organs that would allow them to reproduce in their new bodies? Even to the extent of getting the requisite X or Y chromosomes?

Would you then accept them as men or women in their new bodies?

I already said I would and that it would be pretty cool.

I think that this should be pursued.

JM
(I expect it to be possible within XXX years, possibly even in my lifetime.)

[Sava]

You're a very confusing guy, JM.

but

(I think)

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

I already said I would and that it would be pretty cool.

I think that this should be pursued.

JM
(I expect it to be possible within XXX years, possibly even in my lifetime.)

Then is it really fair to describe the process as delusional when it's simply a science in development?

That seems like damning the subjects simply because the science has yet to be perfected.

[Alexander's Horse]

I'd rather be dead than without my little friend.

[Aeson]

You can say 'why not change if you want to'. And I completely understand that (which is why I am OK with elective surgery). But than we need to be clear, scientifically speaking it isn't a change it is only a change of appearance. And also, those who claim to be scientists yet claim (without evidence) that there is some internal male/female-ness which has nothing to do with the body and tell people that they can change their body to be right are frauds.

JM
(Every transexual I have met have thought it crucially important that with the 'transition' they were a woman and not a man. It has not been my experience that they say that they were just changed to look like a woman.)

A transsexual who undergoes surgery is delusional if they think the surgery will accomplish something other than it can possibly accomplish. A transsexual who undergoes surgery is not delusional if they think the surgery will accomplish what it is likely to accomplish.

You have magically divined that all transsexuals who undergo surgery are in the first group and are thus delusional. To get to this conclusion you have narrowly defined what gender is, and deluded yourself into thinking that all transsexuals must use the same definition as you do when defining their own definition of success.

As with any other group ... I'm sure there are transsexuals spread across a spectrum between "delusional" and "not delusional". You though are certainly delusional about the distribution of transsexuals on that scale.

[pchang]

Jon's view on this is so narrow and literal that it screams TROLL. Either that or he's delusional.

[Alexander's Horse]

If Bruce has the snip, his member should be donated for scientific research - maybe to those Australian researchers who did that excellent work on swallowing.

I don't think the world has many Olympic gold medal todgers in a specimen jar, maybe in Russia or China, who can say?

But the Soviets and Chinese would probably be more likely to whip it off if you failed at the Olympics I imagine, especially in Stalin or Mao's time.

[Sava]

If it is a troll, I applaud him.

[FlameFlash]

I wouldn't say their problems stem from society. In fact, I wouldn't say they have a problem at all. The only problem is that people are assholes. If people stop being assholes, there's no problem.

*Spaceballs salute* YO!

I skimmed through this whole thing and Sava's words could have just ended the thread right there.