Bruce Jenner wants to called Belinda

[kentonio]

What is male or female is the body, and we can't change that now.

It appears you are quite wrong about that.

[Jon Miller]

It appears you are quite wrong about that.

But it is true. Sex change operations do not change sex.

JM

[Sava]

So you're a scientist when it comes to judging transgendered folks as delusional, but not a scientist when it comes to religious beliefs?

If I'm misunderstanding you, please elaborate.

I don't have a background in biology or genetics so I can't fully discuss gender identity in great detail. It seems as if you are saying you believe gender is black or white... male or female. Others would know better, but I think this is an unscientific opinion. It seems to me as if male and female qualities are heavily influenced by hormones.

For instance, I consider myself 100% male... a manly man, if you will. But I also do a lot of strength training. My body is a testosterone factory. I have a more manly physique as a result of my genetic predisposition in addition to the biochemical responses resulting from my behavior. I occasionally take supplements that boost (albeit, indirectly) my testosterone levels. I'm introducing a foreign element into my body to produce these results. I don't see how the gender reassignment process is any different from this. Their bodies receive hormones in order to provoke a biological change. The surgery is often the last piece of the puzzle, so to speak.

It seems incorrect to believe that our definitions of gender are anything but social constructs.

But again, I could be mistaken in my interpretation of your remarks on this subject.

I'm tempted to reiterate the issue involving delusion and religion. It seems that gender identity is biologically driven. That is real. Religious belief require faith. Do you believe Jesus walked on water? If so, what scientific basis to you use to believe in such a thing?

If you ask me, religion is the delusion we should be more concerned about considering how widespread it is and the fact that so many people rely on it to form opinions regarding what is morally right and wrong.

It seems a little convenient that concern for delusions would present itself in this issue... but yet, the concern about delusions is noticeably absent when it comes to religious topics.

The only logical conclusion is that this concern is motivated by bigotry.

If you're going to be a bigot. Own it.

In that regard, I at least respect the kucibros stance. They're motivated by hate.

But again, if I'm under the wrong impression, please correct me. You've always struck me as a very good guy. I'm legitimately surprised by your comments.

[Dr Strangelove]

OMG I'm a Christian Brothers product too

It's time to tell us about it then. What did they do to you? You can't keep it all locked up inside forever. You can trust us. Now stand up and reveal everything! Throw off you prison clothes of secrets! Shout out your pain to the world clad only in the sweet, sweet nakedness of the truth!!

[Jon Miller]

"Penis-at-Twelve" Syndrome. It's for real. Look it up.

They were always male (genetically).

You could argue that they went from not male to male. But I would agree that it is possible to go from male to not male or from woman to not woman.

JM

[Jon Miller]

We extrapolate our observation/experiments that people do not come back to life to the past; however, it is possible that someone did.

Since I do believe in the supernatural (God), than I do believe that it occurred (because of supernatural action). This is not in opposition to me as a scientist.

Since I do not believe in souls than I don't believe that there can be something 'male' when the genetics is 'female'.

You can say 'why not change if you want to'. And I completely understand that (which is why I am OK with elective surgery). But than we need to be clear, scientifically speaking it isn't a change it is only a change of appearance. And also, those who claim to be scientists yet claim (without evidence) that there is some internal male/female-ness which has nothing to do with the body and tell people that they can change their body to be right are frauds.

JM
(Every transexual I have met have thought it crucially important that with the 'transition' they were a woman and not a man. It has not been my experience that they say that they were just changed to look like a woman.)

[Proteus_MST]

They were always male (genetically).

You could argue that they went from not male to male. But I would agree that it is possible to go from male to not male or from woman to not woman.

JM

They are still genetically male ... but phaenotypically female ...
and also are supposed to have an other body feeling (due to the vaginoplasty and the female hormones)

It also may enable them to better perform in society (due to psychological distress taken from them)

[kentonio]

We extrapolate our observation/experiments that people do not come back to life to the past; however, it is possible that someone did.

Since I do believe in the supernatural (God), than I do believe that it occurred (because of supernatural action). This is not in opposition to me as a scientist.

Err, what? How is it possible that it did, when this flies in the face of several millenia of scientific observation? Also how can you consider yourself a scientist who just happens to believe that you can ignore the scientific method if you decide that certain things can just be branded as 'supernatural' and this means they can completely fall outside the realms of science? Does this also occur in your chosen field? If you get some evidence that supports a particular theory that you don't like, can you just ignore it because 'hey it was probably just supernatural'?

[DinoDoc]

So is Bruce going to jail for causing the fatal pile up? Will he/she require the State to pay for the procedure now?

[Pedotard]

What is male or female is the body, and we can't change that now.

Male and female brains are slightly different. Sexual orientation and gender identity are strongly correlated with prenatal hormonal influence on how the brain develops.

[Jon Miller]

It is obvious that portions of reality fall outside of what can be explored by science now, or ever. Any scientist who claims otherwise is deluded.

As a scientist, particularly one who is interested in understanding reality, why should I constrain myself only to the portions of reality that can be explored by science?

For the portions which are appropriately explored by science (part of the natural world, where we have the mathematical models to describe and the technological prowess to make measurements) I use science.

For the portions which are not appropriately explored by science, I can use what I wish to (non-repeatable experiences and so on).

And there have not been any observations that God can't raise people back to life. So that does not fly in the face of scientific evidence. And there have not been any observations against God (in fact, there can't be in the general notion... there can only be in specific notions, particularly highly limited ones like the greek gods or what have you).

I am a particle physicist. Many of my colleagues choose to believe that there is no God or supernatural outside of region of reality explorable by science. Others think that the region of reality explorable by science is the only region worth thinking about and exploring/etc. Still others (Freeman Dyson and Jim Gates to include two famous individuals who I have talked to and even discussed this a bit with) view things similarly to me (and my view has been influenced by theirs).

I would recommend a book I got last year ( http://www.amazon.com/The-Island-Kno.../dp/0465031714 ) for a discussion of what is science and what is not (it is primarily concerned with multiverse and landscape and so on and only has a small mention about God as the author doesn't believe in God (and thinks that God is uninteresting)).

JM

[Lorizael]

So I don't think there is some internal component which can be male or female while the body is something different.

This is a very silly attitude, JM. I agree with you that we are just a body, but that doesn't mean all parts of the body have to be the same. In fact, if that were the case, we'd just be piles of goo. It's exceedingly possible to have a part of your body (your brain) be one thing while another part of your body (your genitalia) is something different. Or, to give a concrete medical example, it's very possible for your brain to be be configured one way (your homunculus says you have two arms) while your body is configured differently (you're an amputee). Hello, phantom limb syndrome.

[Pedotard]

This is a little long but it talks about how sex hormones affect brain development:

http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2005to2009/2009-clinical-implications-hormones.html

[Jon Miller]

This is a very silly attitude, JM. I agree with you that we are just a body, but that doesn't mean all parts of the body have to be the same. In fact, if that were the case, we'd just be piles of goo. It's exceedingly possible to have a part of your body (your brain) be one thing while another part of your body (your genitalia) is something different. Or, to give a concrete medical example, it's very possible for your brain to be be configured one way (your homunculus says you have two arms) while your body is configured differently (you're an amputee). Hello, phantom limb syndrome.

So you agree that they are delusional?

JM

[kentonio]

It is obvious that portions of reality fall outside of what can be explored by science now, or ever. Any scientist who claims otherwise is deluded.

I'm inches away from calling this a crock of steaming horse****, but out of respect for you I'd really like to hear your justification.