what happened to the großrossiya thread

[binTravkin]

General opinion of the sensible part of society until recently was "where the **** are you!".
This has been significantly boosted by the perceived lack of resolve of leaders of EU and somewhat diminished by perceived lack of resolve by US.
In any case the thinking of those people who think Latvia has to be saved from Russia (a majority) is "only US can save us".

This would be much higher if not for the Russian population, most of whom live in an entirely different reality when it comes to history and politics.
For example, many of them honestly believe that Latvians somehow appeared on this land, which had been Russian inhabited all along and other bull**** about themselves and world around them.

There isn't much press material from Latvia, because the column going through barely stopped in any populated place, but here are some pics from a small village:

http://bauskasdzive.diena.lv/vietejas-zinas/muspuse-militaro-tehniku-sveic-ar-karodziniem-127025

This is how it would look had they arrived in Riga city:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3009704/Welcoming-cavalry-Hundreds-Polish-residents-turn-greet-convoy-U-S-troops-driving-eastern-Europe.html

It generally looked like that every decently large town/city they stopped.
They made a tour from Estonia south through Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and Czech Republic.

Here's a 5 years old poll about NATO participation in LV:

http://www.skds.lv/doc/Attieksme%20pret%20NATO_SKDS_062010.pdf

General: Good: 39.3%, Neutral: 30.9%, Bad: 22.5%, no answer: 7.3%
Latvians: Good: 52%, Neutral: 28%, Bad: 13%, no answer: 7%
Russians: Good: 20%, Neutral: 34%, Bad: 38%, no answer: 8%

Dynamic for good 2008->09->10, 49%->42%->52%.

I couldn't find a recent poll, but i'm sure the "good" percentages are significantly higher since 2014.02. for obvious reasons.

Here's support a few years before joining NATO - 59.4% http://www.delfi.lv/news/national/po...o.d?id=1974660

And Latvia is generally the most geopolitically misguided of Baltic states having a large Russian population and less pronounced nationalism than in Estonia, which also has similar proportion of Russian pop.

Frankly the Baltic states are militarily indefensible. It is still good they are in NATO and that does help to add to security as a deterrent if nothing else but if Russia wants to take the Baltic states we can't stop them though ultimately the west probably would win the resulting war.

The current war is about psychology.
Putin is not mad to attack US.
As long as there are a few hundreds of US troops in each of Baltic states, Putin is not going to attack.
These boots on the ground may be working better than nukes.

[Ellestar]

Obviously non-citizens did not vote as they lack the voting rights as in any other country.
That's about the only thing they lack from rights perspective, nobody (but themselves) is really treating them like untermensch.

Yeah, yeah, you divide people of your country to "citizens" and "non-citizens", and then you deny voting rights to "non-citizens" and call it "democracy" and "decided on a referendum".

[binTravkin]

Yeah, yeah, you divide people of your country to "citizens" and "non-citizens", and then you deny voting rights to "non-citizens" and call it "democracy" and "decided on a referendum".

Tell me when it was the last time when Russia granted citizenship without any precondition to a large group of people who:
- are not native
- despite living and working there for 20 or so years, can't speak and often don't even understand Russian
- think Russia is a mistake and should not exist
I have yet to hear of anything like that happening during history of Russia.

They can become citizens any time by passing an exam.
Requirements:
- know Latvian language at a basic level
- know history of Latvia at a basic level

More than half of the Russian speaking population have done this.

And yes, there are other democratic countries with non-citizen population.
That they don't have an official status changes nothing, countries are still perceived as democratic and referendums as legitimate.

[Ellestar]

Tell me when it was the last time when Russia granted citizenship without any precondition to a large group of people who:
- are not native
- despite living and working there for 20 or so years, can't speak and often don't even understand Russian
- think Russia is a mistake and should not exist
I have yet to hear of anything like that happening during history of Russia.

Everyone who lived on a territory of Russia during a collapse of USSR become a Russian citizen. Only Baltic states decided to divide people living in their country into two categories, commemorated Nazis etc.

[binTravkin]

Everyone who lived on a territory of Russia during a collapse of USSR become a Russian citizen.

Answer does not qualify point 2 of my question and likely point 3 either.

Only Baltic states decided to divide people living in their country into two categories

Care to explain mass exodus of Russian speaking people from Central Asia and Caucasus after collapse of USSR then?
Which, by the way, did not happen in Baltics - around 2/3 of the Russian speaking population remained.


Most countries, including Russia, have certain requirements for obtaining citizenship, which goes beyond residence.

http://rt.com/politics/russian-citizenship-ancestors-language-764/

Under regular rules, those applying for Russian citizenship must be over the age of 18, successfully pass a Russian language test and be legally and continuously residing in the country for five years.

Why don't Chinese living in Russian Far East get Russian citizenship automatically?
Maybe they would also like to have a referendum, like the one you "helped to organize" in Crimea?
This time about China.

By the way, now that you brought up Nazis.

Here are some nice recent pics from "Russian march", taking place in.. Russia, Moscow November 4 2014.




More: https://www.google.lv/search?q=russi...YQ_AUoAQ&dpr=1

[Ellestar]

Care to explain mass exodus of Russian speaking people from Central Asia and Caucasus after collapse of USSR then?
Which, by the way, did not happen in Baltics - around 2/3 of the Russian speaking population remained.

Central Asia and Caucasus culture is still half-feudal in some regions. You're in EUROPE. You seriously compare their culture to european one? Rwandan genocide happened in 1994 in Africa, so what, we should thnik it's ok to do it in Europe too?

Most countries, including Russia, have certain requirements for obtaining citizenship, which goes beyond residence.
http://rt.com/politics/russian-citiz...-language-764/

Only for new citizens, not for already existing ones.

By the way, now that you brought up Nazis.

Here are some nice recent pics from "Russian march", taking place in.. Russia, Moscow November 4 2014.

Yeah, yeah, but our Nazis aren't allowed to make laws dividing citizens of the Latvian Republic into citizens and non-citizens. Our ones are a minority, your ones are the majority who actually passed Nazi laws through a referendum, of all things.

[Ellestar]

Remarks at a General Assembly Special Solemn Plenary Meeting in Commemoration of all Victims of the Second World War (Samantha Power, USA)

http://usun.state.gov/briefing/statements/241905.htm

But if we are truly to honor their sacrifice, we must do more than memorialize. We must constantly ask ourselves whether we are doing enough; enough to defend the principles they fought for, enough to ensure the rights that they affirmed do not exist only on paper. Those principles are ridiculed by governments that gas and barrel-bomb their own people, and use starvation as a weapon of war

Good words, but wait, doesn't USA forget something? Their puppet regime in Kiev does exactly the same. Does USA do enough to help Kiev kill their own citizens, or maybe USA should do more? Words are just words in the mouths of Western liars, they lie about their "honorable principles" and "democracy", but we all know what they in fact do.

"Ye shall know them by their fruits." (C) Matthew 7:16

[binTravkin]

Central Asia and Caucasus culture is still half-feudal in some regions. You're in EUROPE. You seriously compare their culture to european one? Rwandan genocide happened in 1994 in Africa, so what, we should thnik it's ok to do it in Europe too?

They weren't called "half-feudal" when those Russian speakers immigrated.
Or if they were - why bother immigrating?
The reality was that the local population was so openly hostile to Russians that they HAD to move out.
That hostility is also visible in Moscow nowadays with "razborkas" between Russians and various immigrants from Central Asia and between themselves.
There is no such hostility in Baltics.
We are cultured people and respect others as long as they respect us.
Since respect to Latvians is a problem with Russian immigrants of soviet times, they basically get the attitude they have themselves.
Many of them, while immigrating to Latvian Soviet Socialist Republic appear to have entirely missed the word "Latvian" and are now surprised that they are in different country.
That's like immigrating to South Africa and being surprised at numbers of African-looking people after you only read "South", but not "Africa".

Only for new citizens, not for already existing ones.

Same here.
Everyone who could trace his citizenship back to independent Latvia in 1918.-1940., became citizens of new Latvia.
Those who couldn't, had to pass an exam.
Everything that happened during 1940.-1991. cannot claim consent of Latvian nation and thus is a priori illegal unless ruled otherwise.
Russia has very similar situation now - if you can prove your ancestors were Russian citizens, you can get citizenship with a "shortcut".

Yeah, yeah, but our Nazis aren't allowed to make laws dividing citizens of the Latvian Republic into citizens and non-citizens. Our ones are a minority, your ones are the majority who actually passed Nazi laws through a referendum, of all things.

Your definition of Nazi seems to differ from official one.
1. We haven't had any nazis in government. Some governments had a small party, part of which (it was created by uniting 2 parties) can be called right-wing-radicals, but that's 2-3 steps away from Nazis in the ideology scale.

2. I'm not aware of any "Nazi" laws. Our laws, including the non-citizenship of Russian speaking population fall squarely into international law, by which these people are occupants arrived during illegal occupation of our country by USSR. Latvian nation, legal or political authorities have never consented to our occupation and thus, in our eyes and according to international law, the governments of Latvia between 1940.-1991. have no legitimacy.

3. If one reads what Russian nazis are saying and what Russian government is saying and doing, there are obvious similarities. According to definition of fascism, Russia is currently a fascist dictatorship. Judging by reports of massive popular support, neither is fascism a minority ideology in Russia.

Here are 14 signs of Fascism. Russia scores 14/14.

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
4. Supremacy of the Military
5. Rampant Sexism
6. Controlled Mass Media
7. Obsession with National Security
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
9. Corporate Power is Protected
10. Labor Power is Suppressed
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
14. Fraudulent Elections

Source: http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm

[Ellestar]

They weren't called "half-feudal" when those Russian speakers immigrated.
Or if they were - why bother immigrating?
The reality was that the local population was so openly hostile to Russians that they HAD to move out.
That hostility is also visible in Moscow nowadays with "razborkas" between Russians and various immigrants from Central Asia and between themselves.

That's what i meant, they still live in old feudal times when such hostility was a norm.
In Moscow it was visible because in 90th many Caucasians controlled marketplaces, illegal businesses etc. instead of working on a fair job. Now situation is much more calm.

P.S. By the way, at that time my best friend was Caucasian.

There is no such hostility in Baltics.
We are cultured people and respect others as long as they respect us.
Since respect to Latvians is a problem with Russian immigrants of soviet times, they basically get the attitude they have themselves.
Many of them, while immigrating to Latvian Soviet Socialist Republic appear to have entirely missed the word "Latvian" and are now surprised that they are in different country.
That's like immigrating to South Africa and being surprised at numbers of African-looking people after you only read "South", but not "Africa".

Maybe it was because people lived in a single united country, USSR, worked for the good of all, built your country together with you, and then overnight someone told them: hey, guys, you worked on a factory for your entire lives? We don't give a damn. You know, we think you're not our citizens, you're "occupants arrived during illegal occupation".

Same here.
Everyone who could trace his citizenship back to independent Latvia in 1918.-1940., became citizens of new Latvia.
Those who couldn't, had to pass an exam.
Everything that happened during 1940.-1991. cannot claim consent of Latvian nation and thus is a priori illegal unless ruled otherwise.
Russia has very similar situation now - if you can prove your ancestors were Russian citizens, you can get citizenship with a "shortcut".

Really? Did Russia gave citizenship only to someone who can trace a citizenship back to independent Russian Empire, before communist occupation? I don't think so. We didn't divide our citizens into first and second sort, like you did.

2. I'm not aware of any "Nazi" laws. Our laws, including the non-citizenship of Russian speaking population fall squarely into international law, by which these people are occupants arrived during illegal occupation of our country by USSR. Latvian nation, legal or political authorities have never consented to our occupation and thus, in our eyes and according to international law, the governments of Latvia between 1940.-1991. have no legitimacy.

Does any country in Europe has similiar laws? Nope. Actually, if i think about it, i can only remember the times of Roman Republic where were roman citizens and non-citizens (women, slaves, client state citizens, former slaves etc). But these were ancient times of slavery, not a modern democracy.

3. If one reads what Russian nazis are saying and what Russian government is saying and doing, there are obvious similarities. According to definition of fascism, Russia is currently a fascist dictatorship. Judging by reports of massive popular support, neither is fascism a minority ideology in Russia.

Not even worth commenting.

[Sava]

Oh, and poor Mobius seems to have gone off the deep end babbling more untrue nonsense. I mean where the hell did he ever get the idea that I was some how a global climate change denier? Seriously dude, please know what your talking about before you babble nonsense.

You argue against reality like one.

[binTravkin]

Maybe it was because people lived in a single united country, USSR, worked for the good of all, built your country together with you, and then overnight someone told them: hey, guys, you worked on a factory for your entire lives? We don't give a damn. You know, we think you're not our citizens, you're "occupants arrived during illegal occupation".

Mostly they didn't.
You think Central Asian hostility was because they're "uncultured" or was otherwise entirely unprovoked?
Think again.
Russian illegal occupants had privileged access to almost everything and often acted like true conquerors.
My grandmother was forced to leave her family house and give it up to Russian occupants.
Do I have to tell you it was returned in a totally dilapidated state?
And this happened all over Latvia.
Seizures, expropriations, arrests, deportations.
I know Russians still love Stalin en masse, despite him not being Russian and slaughtering millions of Russians, but Latvians and most other post-soviet nations are not so mad.

On "building our country".
The balance sheet between Latvian SSR and Moscow is worth 3 billion USSR Rubles. To put things in perspective, the average yearly salary IIRC somewhere between 2000 and 3000 rubles for most of the soviet time.
That's the official difference registered in USSR accounts books, available in Russian State Archive, Moscow.
It doesn't include the mentioned loss of property by seizure and expropriation, as the property was officially seized "for the good of Latvian SSR".

Really? Did Russia gave citizenship only to someone who can trace a citizenship back to independent Russian Empire, before communist occupation? I don't think so. We didn't divide our citizens into first and second sort, like you did.

Yes, because Russia never gave up the pretence that USSR was Russia or indeed just a different incarnation of former Russian Empire.
So citizens of USSR would by default be citizens of Russia.

There is no "first or second sort".
There are citizens and Russian occupants legalized as "non-citizens".
Both legally justified according to international law.
The occupants, technically being illegal immigrants have a much better status than illegal immigrants elsewhere as they basically only lack voting rights.
According to Roman law you like to cite, they would be citizens sine suffragio.

Does any country in Europe has similiar laws? Nope.

Recently there's some fuss in Europe about a thing called "illegal immigration".
For purposes of international law Russian occupants are illegal immigrants for the authority issuing residence permits no longer exists and was illegitimate in the first place.

Not even worth commenting.

Similarly I could dismiss you copying the Kremlin line on "nazism in Latvia" and illegal occupant rights.
You're just not getting anywhere by ignoring the **** that's going on in your country while pointing fingers at others.

[Sava]

I live in a world where Russians are dirty commies AND where Latvians are fascists with a history of Nazi collaboration.

[regexcellent]

I'm going to Estonia in three weeks and I'm looking forward to standing by the Narva river and grabbing my crotch and giving the finger to the Russian border guards on the other side.

[binTravkin]

I live in a world where Russians are dirty commies AND where Latvians are fascists with a history of Nazi collaboration.

No, it's a bit different.

There is a Wonderland between roughly European Union and China, where, despite 110 persons owning 1/3 of all assets (China, which is also very unequal has 1% of pop or 1 million owning the same proportion), all is good.

And there is a ring of enemies around Wonderland, who are all nazis, fascists, radicals, blood-suckers and what not.

They enslave people and don't let them return to Wonderland, so instead, Wonderland intends to come to them.

[regexcellent]

Oh yeah and I'll make sure to take lots of pictures at the KGB Museum in Tartu and post them here