Congratulations Anti-vaxers. Measles spreading in California

[Dinner]

On a different note the Salk Institute for Biological Studies has some amazing architecture.

[N35t0r]

Some people are immune, others have varying levels of immunity, and some have little or no protection. As you explain, many, many native americans didn't have that protection - probably because smallpox was an old world disease related to the domestication of animals after they migrated away. Their "herd immunity" was extremely low, so what happens after 10,000 years of vaccinations? A much larger population of vulnerable people.

The first vaccine against smallpox was, essentially, to infect the patient with a similar - but relatively harmless - virus which caused a disease called cowpox. However, catching this disease conferred immunity towards smallpox as well, since the antibodies which the body generated for cowpox were very effective at killing smallpox as well.

Also, lol, native americans didn't have "low herd immunity", they just had a much different set of antibodies, and were very unlucky in that the more virulent disease made it over first.
In any case, in most places the death toll due to smallpox wasn't much bigger than the one in Europe (which was around 30% during the 18th century) the big shock came because it caught most of the population on a very short timespan, so most of the deaths occured at the same time, and also the proportion of adult deaths was much larger.

[Dinner]

The cowpox vaccine wasn't until the 19th century but before that people did get vaccinations for smallpox using actual live smallpox samples. The key was to find an especially mild case, as opposed to a deadly version, then use a needle which you rubbed in some puss and then pricked the subject's skin with the puss covered needle. It didn't always work though because in the 1770's the King of France died of smallpox after such an attempted vaccination. His grandson took the throne after him and got vaccinated via the same method but he survived his vaccination.

The cowpox version was later came up with as a safer yet still effective version of the same vaccination method.

[Dinner]

As you explain, many, many native americans didn't have that protection - probably because smallpox was an old world disease related to the domestication of animals after they migrated away. Their "herd immunity" was extremely low, so what happens after 10,000 years of vaccinations? A much larger population of vulnerable people.

The native Americans didn't have "10,000 years of vaccinations" because vaccinations didn't exist. What happened was those diseases didn't exist in their isolated world so there was no selective pressure on them for those diseases. As all diseases come from animals, mostly domesticated animals, and they had very few domesticated animals and even those they got far, far later than in the old world. Their population densities were much lower because even those parts of which did have farming suffered from much lower farm output due to less productive crops and no farm animals to increase productivity.

[Berzerker]

Er, did you miss the part where we vaccinated the damn smallpox virus into extinction? As far as anyone can tell, it no longer exists in the wild. There are two samples left in Georgia and Moscow, which we only keep around in case we missed some. Give us ten thousand years more vaccination, and we'll happily be vulnerable to all sorts of long-dead viruses. Much like we've lost our skills with atlatls and cuneiform.

(I assume this point was so obvious because you were feeling desperate to yank more chains; if so, you got me with your mad acting-like-a-dumbass skills)

How does a vaccine extinct a bug that comes from nature? It exists and it will exist in the future and its possible our vaccination program might lead to an evolved bug.

The polio vaccines we use currently aren't "live", they can't replicate, all they can do is prime the recipient's immune system to make antibodies against the real thing. The old Salk vaccine was live.

And I can cite vaccines that use "live" versions, so what?

The first vaccine against smallpox was, essentially, to infect the patient with a similar - but relatively harmless - virus which caused a disease called cowpox. However, catching this disease conferred immunity towards smallpox as well, since the antibodies which the body generated for cowpox were very effective at killing smallpox as well.

The bug might come from cows

Also, lol, native americans didn't have "low herd immunity", they just had a much different set of antibodies, and were very unlucky in that the more virulent disease made it over first.

I prefer "low herd immunity" to "unlucky" lol

The native Americans didn't have "10,000 years of vaccinations" because vaccinations didn't exist

I didn't say they had 10,000 years of vaccinations, I asked what might happen after 10,000 years of vaccinations

[N35t0r]

How does a vaccine extinct a bug that comes from nature? It exists and it will exist in the future and its possible our vaccination program might lead to an evolved bug.

Just like the dodo, that comes from nature, became extinct? It doesn't get spontaneously generated 'in nature', it lived in humans, going from sick people to healthy people and on an on. Until we managed to kill it. There's no chance that our vaccination program will lead to an evolved bug, because that's not how vaccines work. If a more virulent version of something shows up, it would have done so with or without vaccinations.

The bug might come from cows

Which bug? In any case, being close to cows has demonstrated it can provide something akin to a vaccine, should we ban close contact with animals also?

I prefer "low herd immunity" to "unlucky" lol

Yeah, and I prefer a million dollars. But they didn't have "low herd immunity", or else they would have been getting permanently sick all the time from their local diseases, which they weren't.

[pchang]

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the...ing-2015-02-11
It's pretty much useless trying convince Berz. He "knows" better and he won't trust any source that conflicts with what he already "knows".

[Dauphin]

The cowpox vaccine wasn't until the 19th century but before that people did get vaccinations for smallpox using actual live smallpox samples. The key was to find an especially mild case, as opposed to a deadly version, then use a needle which you rubbed in some puss and then pricked the subject's skin with the puss covered needle. It didn't always work though because in the 1770's the King of France died of smallpox after such an attempted vaccination. His grandson took the throne after him and got vaccinated via the same method but he survived his vaccination.

The cowpox version was later came up with as a safer yet still effective version of the same vaccination method.

Given that the word vaccination comes from the word cow, I think cowpox wins the claim for first vaccination, regardless of the facts.

[Berzerker]

Just like the dodo, that comes from nature, became extinct?

The Dodo wasn't made extinct by a vaccine

It doesn't get spontaneously generated 'in nature', it lived in humans, going from sick people to healthy people and on an on.

Smallpox came from animals (nature), vaccines wont make it disappear

There's no chance that our vaccination program will lead to an evolved bug, because that's not how vaccines work. If a more virulent version of something shows up, it would have done so with or without vaccinations.

Spreading a bug gives it more opportunities to evolve

Which bug? In any case, being close to cows has demonstrated it can provide something akin to a vaccine, should we ban close contact with animals also?

Smallpox... I never mentioned banning vaccines. "Something akin to a vaccine"? Its called evolution. If you survived a bug okay and you have kids, they'll share your immunity. If you needed a vaccine your kids will share your need for vaccines.

Yeah, and I prefer a million dollars. But they didn't have "low herd immunity", or else they would have been getting permanently sick all the time from their local diseases, which they weren't.

They had low herd immunity to smallpox and other old world diseases, you denied that fact and called then unlucky instead.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the...ing-2015-02-11
It's pretty much useless trying convince Berz. He "knows" better and he won't trust any source that conflicts with what he already "knows".

Your source doesn't mention anything about our discussion

[Dr Strangelove]

Smallpox, Variola verai, was specific for humans, it had no wild or natural reservoir. It is thought to have evolved from Variola majorbetween 60,000 to 15, 000 years ago, gradually increasing in virulence and contagiousness. It first appeared in epidemic form 2500 years ago in India. Since Variola verai is extinct in human populations, it is extinct (except for lab samples) period. It would take another 10,000+ years for a similar variant to evolve from similar wild Variola species.

[pchang]

Your source doesn't mention anything about our discussion

No, but it explains why you keep disbelieving what people like Dr. Strangelove are saying about vaccines and evolution.

[Berzerker]

Smallpox, Variola verai, was specific for humans, it had no wild or natural reservoir. It is thought to have evolved from Variola majorbetween 60,000 to 15, 000 years ago, gradually increasing in virulence and contagiousness. It first appeared in epidemic form 2500 years ago in India. Since Variola verai is extinct in human populations, it is extinct (except for lab samples) period. It would take another 10,000+ years for a similar variant to evolve from similar wild Variola species.

The bug evolved from something in a natural reservoir and it will in the future, but vaccination programs will ensure lower herd immunity in that future if the vaccines dont work. Do you disagree?

No, but it explains why you keep disbelieving what people like Dr. Strangelove are saying about vaccines and evolution.

What did he say about vaccines and evolution? Did he say a vaccine will afford the same protections for your distant descendents as an evolutionary immunity you acquired from your distant ancestors?

[Lorizael]

Berz, did your parents survive a plague of reason?

[DaShi]

The bug evolved from something in a natural reservoir and it will in the future, but vaccination programs will ensure lower herd immunity in that future if the vaccines dont work. Do you disagree?

You are entirely wrong. If you had at least a high school level of understanding of how vaccines work you would know this.

[Berzerker]

you guys aint doin much to keep the thread interesting