is this a real thing that is actually happening?

[Al B. Sure!]

Syria bonbs Iraq, killing 57 Iraqis

[C0ckney]

felch: i don't really agree with that, not because i am a great believer in representative democracy, but rather because you left out one vital element, that is a political role for the people in shaping society.

[C0ckney]

any chance of a link al?

[Sava]

The problem is the retarded modern obsession with democracy. Democracy is not the goal, democracy is a tool. The goals are human rights and individual liberty. If you can secure individual liberty and human rights in a dictatorship, then that dictatorship would be fine. It turns out that dictatorships are usually pretty lousy about human rights and individual liberties, and democracies are generally better. But a democratically elected government that denies its citizens basic human rights and subjects minorities to degrading treatment is not any more valid or legitimate than a dictatorship doing the same.

Some people believe voting is a human right and an expression of liberty. hah, **** those people

[Al B. Sure!]

any chance of a link al?

It's front page news. http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/25/world/...html?hpt=hp_c2

[Felch]

felch: i don't really agree with that, not because i am a great believer in representative democracy, but rather because you left out one vital element, that is a political role for the people in shaping society.

I don't think that's vital at all. Democracy is helpful, in that it forces accountability in the government, but it's far from vital. Plenty of people don't bother voting at all, and live happy and fulfilling lives.

Some people believe voting is a human right and an expression of liberty. hah, **** those people

Seriously, **** those people. Voting is a tool to help secure your rights. If the tool is abused, by voting for bigots or tyrants, then you'd be better off without it.

Freedom of speech is a human right, but if it's used to foment violence against a minority group then it is being abused.

In the case at hand, Maliki is hiding behind democracy as his rhetorical shield. My point is that even though he was elected, his leadership is invalid because he has been denying his people (specifically Sunnis) equal rights. Democracy is a tool for ensuring good government, it shouldn't be an excuse for bad government to hide behind. Elevating elections to a divine status takes freedom from the people and puts it in the hands of politicians.

[Sava]

It's good we've already established that you aren't a libertarian.

[C0ckney]

It's front page news. http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/25/world/...html?hpt=hp_c2

i couldn't find anything when i posted.

anyway, both the iraqis and syrians are denying it, although of course they'd both have reasons for lying. i prefer to keep an open mind for now.

[C0ckney]

I don't think that's vital at all. Democracy is helpful, in that it forces accountability in the government, but it's far from vital. Plenty of people don't bother voting at all, and live happy and fulfilling lives.

'a political role for the people in shaping society' is not the same as 'voting', though of course voting may be a part of that. i've said before on this forum that i believe representative democracy is a sham and the freedom it offers is largely illusory.

i think perhaps we've misunderstood each other. i wasn't defending maliki's actions as being right, but simply saying that his arguments have some validity in the context of a democracy.

[Uncle Sparky]

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Winston Churchill

[dannubis]

Democracy is not the rule of the majority, it's the protection of the minority.

[C0ckney]

the iraqis have confirmed the syrian airstrikes.

The prime minister of Iraq has confirmed to BBC News that Syria carried out air strikes on militants inside Iraqi territory this week.

Nouri Maliki said Syrian fighter jets had bombed militant positions around the border town of Qaim on Tuesday.

While Iraq did not ask for the raid, he added, it "welcomed" any such strike against the Islamist group Isis.

[Sava]

I understand that aiding rebel groups in Syria is a very complicated process... frought with risk.

But what's the harm in bombing Assad's air force?

Sure, if the goal is to continue the meatgrinder, I understand. But if that's the goal, why not just make that case? I'm pretty sure allowing both sides to murder each other has bipartisan support.

If Congress can't even agree on bombing brown people, I have no hope for our Republic.

[Dr Strangelove]

Israel is encouraging the Kurds to secede.

https://en-maktoob.news.yahoo.com/israel-tells-u-kurdish-independence-foregone-conclusion-134046896.html

JERUSALEM, June 26 (Reuters) - Israel told the United States on Thursday Kurdish independence in northern Iraq was a "foregone conclusion" and Israeli experts predicted the Jewish state would be quick to recognise a Kurdish state, should it emerge.

Israel has maintained discreet military, intelligence and business ties with the Kurds since the 1960s, seeing in the minority ethnic group a buffer against shared Arab adversaries.

The Kurds have seized on recent sectarian chaos in Iraq to expand their autonomous northern territory to include Kirkuk, which sits on vast oil deposits that could make the independent state many dream of economically viable.

Washington wants Iraq's crumbling unity restored. On Tuesday, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry visited Iraqi Kurdish leaders and urged them to seek political integration with Baghdad.

Kerry discussed the Iraqi crisis with Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman in Paris on Thursday.

"Iraq is breaking up before our eyes and it would appear that the creation of an independent Kurdish state is a foregone conclusion," Lieberman's spokesman quoted him as telling Kerry.

A day earlier, Israeli President Shimon Peres had a similar message for U.S. President Barack Obama, who hosted the dovish elder statesman at the White House.

Briefing reporters, Peres said he had told Obama he did not see unifying Iraq as possible without "massive" foreign military intervention and that this underscored Kurdish separation from the Shi'ite Muslim majority and Sunni Arab minority.

"The Kurds have, de facto, created their own state, which is democratic. One of the signs of a democracy is the granting of equality to women," Peres said.

He added that neighbouring Turkey appeared to accept the Kurds' status as it was helping them pump out oil for sale.

A HISTORY OF SILENCE

Israel last Friday took its first delivery of the disputed crude from Iraqi Kurdistan's new pipeline. The United States disapproves of such go-it-alone Kurdish exports.

There are some 30 million Kurds on a swathe of land running through eastern Turkey, northern Syria, northern Iraq and western Iran. They have hesitated to declare independence in Iraq, mindful of opposition from neighbouring states with Kurdish populations.

Israel's Foreign Ministry said there were currently no formal diplomatic relations with the Kurds. Israeli officials declined to comment, however, on the more clandestine ties.

"Our silence - in public, at least - is best. Any unnecessary utterance on our part can only harm them (Kurds)," senior Israeli defence official Amos Gilad said on Tuesday.

Asked on Israel's Army Radio whether Kurdish independence was desirable, Gilad noted the strength of the Israeli-Kurdish partnership in the past and said: "One can look at history and draw conclusions about the future."

Israeli intelligence veterans say that cooperation took the form of military training for Kurds in northern Iraq, in return for their help in smuggling out Jews as well as in spying on Saddam Hussein's regime in Baghdad and, more recently, on Iran.

Eliezer Tsafrir, a former Mossad station chief in Kurdish northern Iraq who is now retired from Israeli government service, said the secrecy around the ties had been maintained at the request of the Kurds.

"We'd love it to be out in the open, to have an embassy there, to have normal relations. But we keep it clandestine because that's what they want," he told Reuters.

Ofra Bengio, an Iraq expert at Tel Aviv University and the author of two books on the Kurds, said last week's oil delivery and other commercial ties between Israel and Kurdistan were "obviously" part of wider statecraft.

"I certainly think that the moment (Kurdish President Masoud) Barzani declares independence, these ties would be upgraded into open relations," she said. "It depends on the Kurds."

The Kurdish Regional Government in northern Iraq has denied selling oil to Israel, whether directly or indirectly. The Israeli government declined to comment on Friday's oil delivery. (Additional reporting by Isabel Coles in Arbil; Editing by Jeffrey Heller and Andrew Roche)
.

[C0ckney]

iraqi government are claiming to have retaken tikrit, while the rebels are denying it.