European Election comedy

[Bereta_Eder]

Look, if health is about to be privitized (and to an extend it is, it's not completely free anymore) I don't care if the titanic sinks.
If education is going to be chopped at and provided only to the haves and not the have nots, I'll drill a whole in the titanic myself

That's what I mean when I say it's what model one would want.

Now let them cut their throats (means to try really hard) and provide those. The means with which they'll provide them is irrelevant.


Also, I agree that a Grexit would be bad for Greece but not because it will wipe out savings (what savings anymore for the middle class? ) but because it will enter an endless circle of depreciations without first having a national plan in place for industry rebuilding.

[Dinner]

No, no meaningful deregulations of businesses have been made as far as I know just like how before you were talking about increasing the minimum wage when the problem is Greek labor already costs the same as German labor but with half the productivity so no one wants to hire them. Yes, there has been austarityl I.E. the government has found it cannot borrow any more money so that it must decrease its spending to be more in line with its ability to pay but that is not deregulation. Yes, austarity sucks ass and hits economies hard in a very negative way but at the end of the day the Greek people kept voting to act in an economically foolish manner so they have no one to blame but themselves. Unlike countries like the US, which have extremely large foreign capital holding (I.E. US citizens own large amounts of assets outside of the country) which can be sold in the event of a debt crisis Greece doesn't have such foreign holdings nor does it get the massive foreign capital inflow like the US does so, no, Greece can't maintain higher debt levels even if countries like the US can. Thus the borrowing had to stop and total expenditures had to come in line with current tax reciepts.

This has left the economy in depression and the question now is how to get it out of depression. Clearly, you can't increase government expenditures no matter how badly you want to (in fact they'll likely have to be cut even more just because no one will loan you any more money) so you can either liberalize the economy via deregulation and lower wages thus spurring new economic growth or you can attempt to inflate away the old debts thus allowing you to take on new debts continuing the status quo without meaningful reforms (for a time anyway before you just repeat the same boom and bust crash). Obviously, it would also help if the Greek government could reign in the massive tax fraud but I have no faith that will ever happen since Greece always claims it will but never actually does. Hell, Greece is famous for having the government simply stop collecting taxes when ever an election is coming up so you guys really are a banana Republic and this is why no one has faith in your ability to pay and so no one will loan you still more money.

[Bereta_Eder]

However, this banana republic still tries to provide to its people (by the people's resistance of course) to a degree that would put to shame many other countries, including the US.

I read your last post, I don't believe it. This is a recipee for actually turning into a banana republic.
About noone loaning us, I don't really care where the money come from as long as said services are free. Let the rich cut their throats and PROVIDE.

Turning into bagladesh wages won't do **** for the economy anyway.

About tax evation, noone can beat that.
Steal to live. (as I don't have a private business, I can't do that. I'm actually one of the few poor w@nkers who are 100% legal)
(Unless you're rich. There you can even do it legally)


(BTW the gov. doesnt stop collecting taxes when elections are coming )

[Bereta_Eder]

You understand, for example, that the troika has superovertaxed the **** out of small and medium companies and that is a main reason they are closing down?

(for starters)

[Bereta_Eder]

There are reforms that make some sense.
Some of them are done, others are not.

However, what I think about it is:

1. that for the last 38 years 80% of my compatriots were complete idiots voting for the same cleptocrats again and again - but Greece's average living standards kept getting better (far before there was a euro here)

2. That the current political elite has one goal: to hold on to its privileges and avert a popular (democratic) uprising that would force it to change course

3. That the troika has one goal only: the stabilization of world finance so that rich don't lose their privileges there. And of course, getting back as much money as it can before the titanic sinks, as you said.


The only guarantee for fair reforms if you will, is and always has been the people.
If they are dumb enough to keep going that course, then let's sink and maybe I find a nice mermaid to keep me company.

[Bereta_Eder]

BTW I read your post a bit more carefully now that I have time.

There are some falacies in it.

(taking as a starting point that I view american economic society as catastrophic and an exmple to avoid at all costs)

But, if you want to talk like "elite" let's do that.


When lehman brothers collapsed and fanny and mey were about to, what did your gov did?

IT THREW 1 TRILLION DOLLARS INTO THE ECONOMY

Exactly the opposite of what is being done now.

The taxes are overwhelming and are crushing every hope their is for recovery.

In the end you'll have the old saying, the operation was succesful, but the patient, unfortunately, died.

There can not be growth AND austerity at the same time.
Troika has failed because the aleviation of peoples' pain was never its goal.

The straightjacket of the troika is being accepted ONLY to remain in the euro.

And I guess you're joking about being choosy about the reforms.
They are transposed to national law automatically in order to receive the next loan trance and are enforced with great glee by the employers (the few that have remained)

Also, banks were loaning in order for "us" to buy stuff from their home countries, with full expactation that there was going to be a bail out. They are accessories to murder.
The average citizen knew **** all about the level of lending that was going on. The political class basically bought votes with indebting future generations
(and not only in Greece)

[AAAAAAAAH!]

When lehman brothers collapsed and fanny and mey were about to, what did your gov did?

IT THREW 1 TRILLION DOLLARS INTO THE ECONOMY

Exactly the opposite of what is being done now.

The taxes are overwhelming and are crushing every hope their is for recovery.

I thought Greece had a massive budget deficit?

[Bereta_Eder]

It did. Actually it was "revealed" that it did.
Today there's a surplus after the whole country is in ruins (compared to 5 years back)

So what? The total GDP has shrank so much the debt is STILL not viable, plus it has grown compared to what it was when the crisis begun.

[Dinner]

You understand, for example, that the troika has superovertaxed the **** out of small and medium companies and that is a main reason they are closing down?

(for starters)

No, the reason taxes had to be raised is because those countries so over borrowed they couldn't pay their damn bills so they went begging to the TROICA for free money. The TROICA agreed to give them money but in return they had to improve their ability to pay and that meant they had to cut spending and increase revenue. They could have cut more and simply not raised taxes but people moaned about every little cut so taxes had to be raised to make up the difference. The heart of the problem is still that those worthless countries borrowed so damn much they couldn't pay their bills. Stop trying to pass the buck as these countries created their own damn problems.

[Dinner]

When lehman brothers collapsed and fanny and mey were about to, what did your gov did?

IT THREW 1 TRILLION DOLLARS INTO THE ECONOMY

Exactly the opposite of what is being done now.

Again, the US government HAD $1 trillion dollars (actually less than $800 billion) to spend to solve the problem without going into a debt crisis plus the US government made, net, ~$250 billion off of the bail outs. This is a luxury which rich countries can afford because they have enough money to spend on such things. Greece is not a rich country, at best it is a middling country, and defacto it is a poor country wrt its ability to come up with cash because it has so badly mismanaged its finances for so long. If the Greek government could come up with ready cash like the American government could then it would never have defaulted on its national debt nor would it have trouble borrowing money on international markets as it currently does. Greece is not America so it is best you stop with the stupid "but America did X" comparisons because you simply do not have as many options as America does.

The fact remains that Greece DID default, Greece does not have all of the options America has, and Greece needs to find a way to turn itself around with in the confines of what it does have available to it. That's the facts, my friend, and nothing you have posted so far has hinted about any realistic way to deal with Greece's real problems other than you whining that you don't like the medicine. These are your options so take a choice or come up with a different choice.

I suppose you could try some exotic, something like France did in 1815 with the 4/5th's bankruptcy, where the restored monarchy in France got rid of the debts both of the old regime and of the revolutionary government by writing them down by 80% and refusing to pay more than 20% of their face value. It must be said that France in 1815 actually had a strongly growing economy from all of those soldiers who had been conscripted in Napoleon's Armies return home and finding civilian jobs combined with technological advancement (the 19th century was blessed with rapid technological advancement which vastly improved real worker productivity) and a high savings rate in France itself. Modern Greece has none of those advantages.

It does not have a rapidly expanding economy, it does not have a rapidly expanding population which is one of the highest in Europe, it doesn't have a sharply rising national savings rate, nor is it experiencing rapid productivity growth or rapid technological advancement. In short, you have none of the things which enabled early 19th century France to shake off the economic effects of national default. As default would result in Greece getting kicked out of the Euro Zone it would have all the negative effects of my previously mentioned option #2 with the added negative effects of capital markets being seized up for not only the government but also for private industry in Greece so it would be even WORSE than option #2. My suggestion is to stop looking for exotic solutions, to stop pretending that fundamental change (in the form of sharply lower standards of living) won't be necessary and to simply start taking your medicine.

The sooner you begin the sooner the worst will be over while your "solution" seems to let the patient linger on his death bed for decades and decades without doing anything to change the situation.

[Bereta_Eder]

The point I was trying to make is that there were more options than those that have been tried and didn't work out so well.

I'm not going to bore you with admissions of the troika itself that it did mistakes after mistakes, about the decision of the european parliement about severe concerns having to do with the "rescue package".
(and that's simply because I don't trust troika, I want it demolished, little neoliberal parrots have nothing to offer but their hides)

EU has more money than the US does and one trillion is nothing. I'm not suggesting it is "invested" in Greece ( ) I am saying that the "medecin" is killing the patient and there are other alternatives, than cold blooded austerity that will mean that the debts are never repayed anyway (the part that could be).

[Bereta_Eder]

The sooner you begin the sooner the worst will be over while your "solution" seems to let the patient linger on his death bed for decades and decades without doing anything to change the situation.

Actually, that's their "solution"

(could you page dr house? )

[Bereta_Eder]

No, the reason taxes had to be raised is because those countries so over borrowed they couldn't pay their damn bills so they went begging to the TROICA for free money. The TROICA agreed to give them money but in return they had to improve their ability to pay and that meant they had to cut spending and increase revenue. They could have cut more and simply not raised taxes but people moaned about every little cut so taxes had to be raised to make up the difference. The heart of the problem is still that those worthless countries borrowed so damn much they couldn't pay their bills. Stop trying to pass the buck as these countries created their own damn problems.

What can I say?
Chapeau to your godlman sachs. It seems to be the ubber master in covering external payment obligations.

"These worthless countries created their own problems"?

That sounds like alex jones in reverse.

You are getting paid, say, 1000 euros.
You want a loan of 1.000.000 million.

I give it to you and take a nice hefty bonus, knowing full well you won't be able to pay it back ever, but that you will (which means I) will be bailed out.

So let banks take a hit. Big deal. They took stupid risk.

But no. Instead you transfer all debt to national european coffers and take them off the hook.
Meanwhile you engage in austerity policies that completely demolish not only social fabric but also any hope for growth (and being able to repay part of the debts).

There are no "magical alternative solutions", that's for sure. But you have to be either an idiot or having personal gain to choose what is being chosen at this time.


I suggest you start learning about what happened in Iceland. (which doesn't have the euro)

[Bereta_Eder]

btw i reply to you, on your terms, because besides the fact that you're a friend, I know you genuinely say things in order to make the situation better.
i fully acccept all shortcomings but that simply doesnt mean people must die, because of it.

for example my dream is for greece to be like scandinavia was back in the 80's and 90's. but if you're left wing they think you're going to turn the country to cuba or something

[Bereta_Eder]

you're talking with terms that dont exist here.

you're talking about social trust, transperent ways of doing things, accountability that's not the case here.
that I WANT it to be the case?
of course

BUT the truth is that things advance or retreat based on social strife, conflict.
learn to play the game or you perish

a low intensity civil war that has never really ended

it will go on and on untill it devours all of us

there's no social trust. I cant begin to say how important that is.

or that I dont know that many of things that have happened was simply because all of europe believes greece is its soul or something and doesnt let go.

and where did that lead us?

they ****ing hate us now