European Election comedy

[Bereta_Eder]

If Britain leaves, great loss but managable.

If France leaves, EU is destroyed

[Bereta_Eder]

The EU was started to
1. avoid a third world war
2. "contain" Germany and insert her into paneuropean norms once and for all

(BTW I'm giving you the eurosecntric approach (=francocenctric)

To do this the EU united coal, nuclear and steel nation state production.

This was done to deprive national control on the materials that are used to forge armies.

After that there was a "low politics" push for more integration, naimely economic.

One thing that happened and was unexpected was the unification of germany. This propelled that country to the top, uncontested.
EU institutions struggled to absorb the new englarged state.

The brits have a more and more enticing view of europe. = that means solid friendship but without all the mambo jambo directives.

So the EU's primary function was to avoid a war BETWEEN ITS MEMBER STATES. This has been achieved.
The economy is secondary and now it really depends on how things unfold in the national economies. i.e. level of unemployment, immigration issues (to en extend).
That's all.

For Greece, the years of national coins were hyperinflationary but OTOH the unemployment was nowhere near those levels. This has never happned before AFAIK

[Main_Brain]

Well.

The Eu did not unite Coal and Steel Production. The Montan Union (France Germany Benelux Italy) which did, was also not aimed at the Control of War Materials (although that was the Public French Line).
French Agenda: Gain Access to Ruhr Coal which was at that Point in British Protectorate
German Agenda: Redefine Franco-German Relations (->Reenarment ), stop demontage of Ruhr Industry, Reestablishment of Germany as International Partner
Italy: unsure, were they under sanctions?


The Historic Development of the EU has two Constants: * The Push for more Politic and Military Integration
* The Failure of such Initiatives followed by the least common Denominator: Economic Int.

Should've stopped at EEC.


Also regarding the Thesis the EU is there to avoid a WAr between its Members: B ullsht, Economic Prosperity and NATO did more for European Peace than this so called Institution. Tensions between States now are higher than I ever remember so thanks EU..

[kentonio]

Tensions between States now are higher than I ever remember so thanks EU..

Tensions between who though? Even in eurosceptic Britain, xenophobia towards Germany and France is at probably the lowest levels in history.

[Bereta_Eder]

Well the "other side" says that a reverting back to sovereign economies would inevitably lead to protectionism moves between european nation states and then, like a film of the past, to war. From that POV even NATO can't exist without supranational institutions such as the EU. (it will dissolve from within).

I think there was one push for unified military in 1958 (IIRC) but it was voted down by the french parliement.
The "way" the EU was advancing was actually the low political drives of economy. Somewhere along the line, the theory went, all these economic integration moves (low politics) would produce a spill over effect into political and military union (high politics).

There appears to be a rift between low and high politics and the spillover didn't happen.
(that's all european theorists approach)

from each crisis produced the EU "advanced" through deepening of integration.
Even today, there is a banking union which didn't exist before.
But, before the more or less ok state of living of most european countries made this silent consent for deepening integration ok too.
This has (obviously) stopped.

[Dinner]

I think the British view that currency unions without binding political union is doomed to failure has pretty much proven to be correct. Just notice how most EU states have never been very interested in living up to their deficit goals so the only thing holding the whole thing together is German money and the perception that German tax payers will bail out the other states no matter how stupidly they behave.

[Dinner]

Tensions between who though? Even in eurosceptic Britain, xenophobia towards Germany and France is at probably the lowest levels in history.

I think he is talking about the southern European states who desperately want to get bailed out but resent both the conditions and the loss of pride which go with it.

[Bereta_Eder]

Well, personally I'm not concerned with pride (I have enough) but with the everyday reality and how worsening it is getting.
It would have been a bail out if people were bailed out they weren't.

Banks were bailed out since the debt was nationalized on a european level.

As for the blaming game I blame all elites as well as banks.

The thing I want is 3 basic things free. Is it the EU who will provide? Fine.
Is it a Grexit that will provide? Fine.

I don't identify with national elites but with the man next to me.

[Dinner]

Well, personally I'm not concerned with pride (I have enough) but with the everyday reality and how worsening it is getting.
It would have been a bail out if people were bailed out they weren't.

Banks were bailed out since the debt was nationalized on a european level.

As for the blaming game I blame all elites as well as banks.

Greece entered the Euro at too high an exchange rate so that the price of Greek made goods and Greek labor was simply not cost competitive. There are only two ways, which I can think of, to solve this problem and make Greece more competitive again. 1) Greece leaves the Euro, restores the national currency, which would then plunge in value so that the price of Greek made goods/labor then is competitive enough for people to consider them worth buying. 2) Greece remains in the Euro but goes under a massive deregulation campaign designed to make Greek industry dramatically more competitive; we're talking eliminating the minimum wage, eliminating most business regulations, eliminating most land use regulations, and basically cutting the government (and its spending) down to a tiny nub. The second one is the harder approach as you'd have to muster political will and it is hard to get voters to agree to things which will negatively impact their standard of living but while the first approach maybe politically easier economically it would be much harder as it would mean wiping out the entire collective savings of everyone in Greece (well, everyone who hasn't stashed all their capital offshore).

[Bereta_Eder]

Deregulation is code word for private pillaging of national wealth.
No can do.

About the bloating of the public state, sure.

The national minmum wage will be raised not lowered even further.
Business regulations protect workers and they have already been nearly demolished.
land use protects certain things like for example that all beaches are accessible to everyone.
If something is irrational though, I'd accept it. But national pillaging will (is) meeting resistance.

[Dinner]

Deregulation is code word for private pillaging of national wealth.
No can do.

Then sit in perpetual economic depression because you're unwilling to do what it takes to make your economy competitive.

About the bloating of the public state, sure.

The national minmum wage will be raised not lowered even further.
Business regulations protect workers.
land use protects certain things like for example that all beaches are accessible to everyone.
If something is irrational though, I'd accept it. But national pillaging will (is) meeting resistance.

Again, then sit in perpetual depression because you're unwilling to do what it takes to make it worth a company's time to hire Greek workers. The Economist had an article about how long it takes to get the paperwork filled out to start a new company from registering the company, getting the phone lines hooked up, getting permission to renovate a building so it suits the company's needs, to getting the power hooked up in the right name, to getting the bank accounts squared away, etc... Guess which country came out to be the worst in the whole damn EU? Greece.

Greece has absolutely massive problems with over regulation and sky high costs so very few companies bother even doing business in Greece. This is why the Greek economy sucks ass and why unemployment in Greece is sky high. You can either deregulate and improve your competitiveness that way or you can get kicked out of the Euro Zone so that you can devalue the restored national currency but if you don't do either then you're economy will remain stuck. BTW deregulation is far better than getting kicked out of the Euro Zone because at least that method doesn't completely wipe out the collective national savings via inflation.

[Bereta_Eder]

I suppose it's what kind of a model it is you seek.
I would readily accept each and every reform if I could trust that that would lead to the kind of society that I want.

So far all this deregulation has risen unemployment levels to 26% or so (an unbelievable rate) the debt I think is larger than when the "bail out" begun and health care and schooling have been so much affected that even if the whole thing stopped here, it would take years to rebuild.

[Dinner]

I suppose it's what kind of a model it is you seek.

No, it is not what kind of model you seek it is about Greece being absolutely ****ed economically and being willing to do what it takes to un**** its economy. The rest of it is a fantasy land which amounts to rearrange deck chairs on the Titanic. Your ship is sinking and now you'll either do the fundamental structural reforms to stop it sinking or you won't.

That's your choice but continue fiddling with the curtains if you prefer, however, that is still making a choice. Namely, to not do anything and let the ship sink.

[Bereta_Eder]

The Economist had an article about how long it takes to get the paperwork filled out to start a new company from registering the company, getting the phone lines hooked up, getting permission to renovate a building so it suits the company's needs, to getting the power hooked up in the right name, to getting the bank accounts squared away, etc... Guess which country came out to be the worst in the whole damn EU? Greece.

Greece has absolutely massive problems with over regulation and sky high costs so very few companies bother even doing business in Greece. This is why the Greek economy sucks ass and why unemployment in Greece is sky high. You can either deregulate and improve your competitiveness that way or you can get kicked out of the Euro Zone so that you can devalue the restored national currency but if you don't do either then you're economy will remain stuck. BTW deregulation is far better than getting kicked out of the Euro Zone because at least that method doesn't completely wipe out the collective national savings via inflation.

You edited this.
I accept all of that!
Bureaucracy is in place in order to safeguard certain quality levels and worker legislation is there to protect, well, the worker!
There are also other problems with rapidly chaning and incosnistent tax systems etc


Again, the course taken now has aggravated all these problems. The deregulations HAVE been made (to a large extend) and that has worsened the situation instead of fixing it.


I even know why!
(at least I think)

[Bereta_Eder]

No, it is not what kind of model you seek it is about Greece being absolutely ****ed economically and being willing to do what it takes to un**** its economy. The rest of it is a fantasy land which amounts to rearrange deck chairs on the Titanic. Your ship is sinking and now you'll either do the fundamental structural reforms to stop it sinking or you won't.

That's your choice but continue fiddling with the curtains if you prefer, however, that is still making a choice. Namely, to not do anything and let the ship sink.

I liked that because it was filled with lyricism