An occupational hazard for a thief or justification for a murder charge?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yeah, premeditation can vary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premeditated_murder

State laws in the United States vary as to definitions of "premeditation." In some states, premeditation may be construed as taking place mere seconds before the murder.

I'd have no issues with 2nd degree murder myself, FWIW. But if the state law allows for 1st degree for pausing, why not?

[loinburger]

"Oh man, I just shot somebody, I'd better call the police and an ambulance!" - sane person's reaction to shooting somebody
"Oh man, I just shot somebody, first I'd better make sure they don't bleed on my carpet, and then I'll lay in wait so I can shoot any accomplices!" - this guy's reaction to shooting somebody

[Felch]

Several quiet minutes spent reloading

Did I miss the part that said he shot her with a musket? Reloading takes a few seconds. It takes your body a lot longer than a few seconds to calm down from a high stress situation (based on physiological criteria like heart rate, muscle tension, hormone levels, etc.). There's a reason why the law distinguishes between an unlawful killing made during a stressful situation, and one where the killing was planned before the mood altering effects of an acute stress response. People act irrationally when their bodies are flooded with stress hormones, and otherwise decent people will do things that they wouldn't otherwise do.

[Felch]

Yeah, premeditation can vary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premeditated_murder

I'd have no issues with 2nd degree murder myself, FWIW. But if the state law allows for 1st degree for pausing, why not?

I wouldn't be surprised if many of those convicted of 1st degree murder based on a few seconds of "premeditation" were minority defendants facing all-white juries.

[Buster Crabbe's Uncle]

Not that you and I have enough to go on to rule on this, but from the OP:

Almost immediately after Brady is shot, rustling of a tarp can be heard, then a dragging sound and heavy breathing. Smith has said he had moved Brady to a workshop in his basement to keep him from staining the basement carpet.

The audio continued with the sound of a gun reloading, then more deep breaths. In a quiet, low voice several minutes later, a female mumbles "Nick." Gunshots are heard again, as well as the sound of Kifer falling. Smith quickly said "Oh, sorry about that." Then Kifer said "Oh my God!" and screams.

Amid more shots, Smith told Kifer, "you're dying," and then calls her a derogatory name for a woman. After more heavy breathing and another dragging sound, Smith calls Kifer the name again. After more movement, the crack of a gun is heard.

He took his freakin' time and pumped multiple rounds into her at least twice, according to this account. Sounds like she was already down and wounded from the first shots that also killed the boy, but I don't know that. The rest, if this account is not misleading, is stone cold.

[Felch]

The several quiet minutes were spent in the middle of a high stress situation, not calming down in safety. As far as we know, he believed that his home was being invaded. If he'd shot her, confirmed that she was not a threat, then waited several minutes, then came back and gunned her down it would be different.

Premeditation isn't defined by the statute in my state or by the federal government, but both lump it in with "lying in wait" and "poisoning." Using those as guides, it's unfair to apply first-degree murder to this situation. Smith didn't ambush these two in a back alley, nor was he putting arsenic in their food. He was responding to a high stress situation, and his actions have to be understood in that context. Unless the state can prove that he was calm and thinking rationally when he chose to finish off Kifer, it's second degree murder.

[Guynemer]

First-degree, second-degree, who gives a ****?

[Buster Crabbe's Uncle]

If she came in to in investigate the shots only after the tarp thing happened, I'd still call that premeditated, but not as strongly. I wonder what the forensic analysis said? We're working from a hella-vague account. "Minutes" on the tape were easily measured.

We are, in the end and as Winnie Churchill said to the lady, just haggling about the price, what she is already having been determined.


Edit: another great ninja.

[Patroklos]

Still winning the arguments in your head?

How can you stand how stupid you are?

It's not my fault you can't express yourself correctly or understand the meaning of the things you say.

Stay strong little root, the storm of life will pass you by eventually.

[The Mad Monk]

I'd say the time taken, including reloading, qualifies it as premeditation.

What say you, lawyers?

Until you know all armed intruders are down or gone, there is nothing wrong with reloading, or staying alert.

Coup de graces are another matter.

[Felch]

If she came in to in investigate the shots only after the tarp thing happened, I'd still call that premeditated, but not as strongly.

Just out of curiosity, what do you think premeditated means?

[Felch]

Turns out Minnesota has stricter standards of premeditation than George Bluth.

the state must always prove that, after the defendant formed the intent to kill, some appreciable time passed during which the consideration, planning, preparation or determination required by Minn. Stat. § 609.18 prior to the commission of the act took place.

On the basis of events before and at the time of the killing, the trier of fact will sometimes be entitled to infer that the defendant actually premeditated and deliberated his intentional killing. Three categories of evidence are important for this purpose: (1) facts about how and what the defendant did prior to the actual killing which show he was engaged in activity directed toward the killing, that is, planning activity; (2) facts about the defendant's prior relationship and conduct with the victim from which motive may be inferred; and (3) facts about the nature of the killing from which it may be inferred that the manner of killing was so particular and exacting that the defendant must have intentionally killed according to a preconceived design. Illustrative of the first category are such acts by the defendant as prior possession of the murder weapon, surreptitious approach of the victim, or taking the prospective victim to a place where others are unlikely to intrude. In the second category are prior threats by the defendant to do violence to the victim, plans or desires of the defendant which would be facilitated by the death of the victim, and prior conduct of the victim known to have angered the defendant. As to the third category, the manner of killing, what is required is evidence (usually based upon examination of the victim's body) showing that the wounds were deliberately placed at vital areas of the body.

Smith didn't lure Kifer into his home, nor did he approach her in a dark alley. There's no evidence in the article of prior threats. Finally the very fact that Smith was recording the incident indicates that he wasn't intending to murder anybody, and that the killings occurred in the heat of the moment (otherwise he'd make sure to get rid of surveillance that would implicate him). I think that a reasonable person could doubt the state's claim of premeditation. Hence murder in the second degree.

[Buster Crabbe's Uncle]

Just out of curiosity, what do you think premeditated means?

If this was a live meatspace conversation and I, just happening to be armed because we're in a bad neighborhood full of trolls, shot you dead for saying that, it's murder two. Assume I didn't come here looking for trouble, or you, for the sake of my lame hypothetical.

If you were on the ground bleeding because you were standing behind Ben, also trolling, when I killed him, during the brief time it took me to reload, I could have left, I could have used the report button, I could have PMed Ming, or I could have put my boot on your chest and waited for the cops. If I then blow your butt away anyway, I'm a murderer in the first degree, depending on the jurisdiction, how good my lawyer is, and a lot of random luck factors. -But that makes for premeditation, maybe, IMAO.

That you needed killin' excuses nothing.

I'm more interested in the ethical discussion than the legal aspects. Asked and answered?

[MrFun]

Covering up a crime is an admission of guilt.

Exactly. If the guy did not think he committed murder, why cover anything up? Leave everything as is, call the cops, and then let them give you the hero award.

[DinoDoc]

Blood is a pain to get out of carpets, Fun.