There's Something Absolutely Wrong with what we do to Boys...

[Kidlicious]

yes. although of course there are many different factors.

It comes down to the percieved need to provide and protect women and children and to be respected for that. As we see men alienated from their families we will see the suicide rate increase. We also might see an increase in violence but the main cause is alienation.

[notyoueither]

Again, talking past each other. Not talking about me here. What I am saying is that is what people need to do: ignore everyone else talking about masculinity. It is bull****.

Also, as COckney rightly points out, violence is becoming more rare, not more frequent.

I know, but unfortunately people do not normally function that way. We are social animals. We, by and large, need acceptance and a sense of belonging. Many young men are alienated by aspects of our society that attempt to force them to conform.

I'm not sure that COckney is so right. I agree that violent crimes are decreasing FWIK, but I severely doubt that crime overall is given that the police in many places now resist even recording petty crime. And then there's suicides. It's something to look into more.

[C0ckney]

It comes down to the percieved need to provide and protect women and children and to be respected for that. As we see men alienated from their families we will see the suicide rate increase. We also might see an increase in violence but the main cause is alienation.

i think it's a bit more complicated than that.

also, as i've said, society is becoming less violent, and has been doing so for a long time.

[C0ckney]

I'm not sure that COckney is so right. I agree that violent crimes are decreasing FWIK, but I severely doubt that crime overall is given that the police in many places now resist even recording petty crime. And then there's suicides. It's something to look into more.

you shouldn't take my word for it. read steven pinker's 'the better angels of our nature'. he presents a very compelling argument that society is becoming less and less violent.

there's a lot of evidence that crime in general is falling. if you think about it, that isn't surprising, a less violent and more prosperous society is likely to have less crime.

[Elok]

I've heard a lot about the decrease in violence. Haven't actually read Pinker's book, but I've wondered: how does he account for the fact that, halfway through the twentieth century, we developed weapons which made the till-then-increasing trend of scorched-earth total war untenable? After that, we just had proxy wars in third-world countries, which were plenty brutal but caused fewer fatalities due to said countries' having a lower population than major industrialized nations. None of the reviews mentioned this, but I wasn't curious enough to buy the book and find out.

Re: ruined children, they are indeed getting screwed up...by incompetent parents allowing the TV to raise their kids for them. The worst beliefs they absorb are "just believe in yourself, and your most extravagant dreams will come true without effort" (courtesy of said TV, also reinforced at school) and "you will always be protected from the consequences of your actions, however irresponsible" (courtesy the parents; schools may attempt to correct, but parents will typically undermine them). If kids are getting messed up by gender roles, I'm just not seeing it.

[ZEE]

Masculinity is not a modern cultural construct nor an American one, no matter what the video says ("We've constructed an idea of masculinity in the United States..."). The very aspects of masculinity that the video decries are pervasive in every human culture known present and past. The Spanish call it machismo. The Romans equated 'Romanitas' or Roman-ness with manhood and the word virtue, which we borrow from the Latin virtus, has a cognate in the Latin vir, or man. In the Bible, a dying King David instructs his son Solomon to, "be thou strong therefore, and shew thyself a man" (1 Kings 2:2 KJV). Every human society has developed an idea of manhood equated with strength, competitiveness, courage, risk-taking, mental and physical toughness, and sacrifice for the benefit of the weak.

The universality of masculine attributes exists because it is not a cultural construct, but a biological identity. A boy in the video astutely makes the observation that masculinity is instinctive. Men have been selectively bred, through half a million years of evolution, to demonstrate these traits as part of our sexual dimorphism; it is our peacock’s tail. Our cultural artefacts that we associate with masculinity have their root and their sustainment in our biological dispositions. They were not created out of thin air by some malevolent entity to impose male hegemony but are, to borrow Richard Dawkins’ terminology, an extended phenotype to our genetics.
Now, that is not to say that there are not negative aspects of masculinity nor that masculinity evolved on the savanna with its half a million years of cultural accessories fits perfectly in our 21st century world. In fact, I would contend that many of the problems the video associates with masculinity are actually issues with the imposition of modern restraints on manhood and the weakening of male image.

Men are competitive. Every man sees a rival in his brother men. Societies have traditionally fostered this sense of competition through war, sport, and economics. Male self-value is linked tightly with social standing. Men desire to be leaders of men, to be perceived as stronger mentally, physically, and emotionally than other men, and to have more. A man who is stronger will be the leader of the pack, will have the best wife, etc. A man’s worth is determined by his victories, whether in sports wins, his heroism, money earned, his house and car, his wife, etc.

But this competitive desire to be an alpha male is incongruous with the forced egalitarianism of modern Western society. Not only are all men equal but all women are equal to men, as well. Not only is this contrary to our biological impulses but it is contrary to hundreds of millennia of cultural ideas of manhood. We need to be an alpha male; we compete to achieve some semblance of a tribal leader. We desire not only self-empowerment but power over others but society castrates men with equality, leaving this desire unfulfilled. That powerlessness, that nagging disillusionment, produces many of the supposed excesses of manhood. It frustrates us and makes us lash against the world and influences the high criminality and suicide rates among males.

Now, obviously, that is not to say that human equality is not a laudable goal, but we need to be aware of the negative effects it has on the male psyche. The video seems to recognize that modern society is incongruous with traditional ideas of manhood and, dismissing masculinity as a mere cultural construct, implies that we need to redefine manhood.
I contend doing so would only increase the excesses of masculinity in an unmasculine world. Our biology has adapted one way and faced with conflict between nature and society, we attempt to further undermine nature and wonder why things get worse? Why are all these problems manifesting themselves now, in an ever-more equal society, as patriarchy is in its decline? It should not be a surprise that male frustration will follow the discrediting of traditional masculine values and the condemnation of demonstrated male attributes.

Rather than redefine masculinity, a Sisyphean task given its intense biological roots, we need an outlet. We need to recognize how modern society, influenced by egalitarianism and feminism, disempowers men and how excesses like criminality, violence, depression, and suicide, are biological reactions to this cultural castration. We need to empower men with an outlet to express their competitive desires. I do not know what method would satisfy this instinct but before we explore solutions, we must make sure we are tackling the problem the right way and finding the actual causes. It is my contention that the video and modern gender studies approach masculinity the wrong way. Once we are on the same page, we can discover solutions.

Rather than redefine what it means to be men, we need an outlet to prove ourselves as men.

Alby cKan you Please recKord this Poast in Vocaroo?

[Elok]

Re: crime, I have heard that police face a lot of pressure to play down crime, so as to keep reporting improved performance year after year. I'm also not convinced that a more prosperous society would entail less crime. Or that we are necessarily a more prosperous society; I keep hearing that income inequality is on the rise. And then there's climate change. A more peaceful, sedate existence is not necessarily a given for the future, even if we have it now.

[Elok]

(trying to minimize my epic posts; don't want to get back in the habit of spending my damn life on here)

[notyoueither]

Data seems hard to find, but this says suicide rates of 15-24 yos more than doubled from 1950 to 2010 (4.5 to 10.0 per 100K). The rate really takes off by 1980 (12.3) and peaks in 1990 (13.2).

Female suicide rates are a fraction of male, but that's for all ages.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0779940.html

They site the CDC.

[Kidlicious]

I've heard a lot about the decrease in violence. Haven't actually read Pinker's book, but I've wondered: how does he account for the fact that, halfway through the twentieth century, we developed weapons which made the till-then-increasing trend of scorched-earth total war untenable? After that, we just had proxy wars in third-world countries, which were plenty brutal but caused fewer fatalities due to said countries' having a lower population than major industrialized nations. None of the reviews mentioned this, but I wasn't curious enough to buy the book and find out.

Re: ruined children, they are indeed getting screwed up...by incompetent parents allowing the TV to raise their kids for them. The worst beliefs they absorb are "just believe in yourself, and your most extravagant dreams will come true without effort" (courtesy of said TV, also reinforced at school) and "you will always be protected from the consequences of your actions, however irresponsible" (courtesy the parents; schools may attempt to correct, but parents will typically undermine them). If kids are getting messed up by gender roles, I'm just not seeing it.

Schools are feminized. Boys aren't held accountable for not learning only for acting like boys, playing with toy guns etc. Women can depend on a man or the government to take care of her but no one will take care of a man except for maybe mommy but not always.

[notyoueither]

Re: ruined children, they are indeed getting screwed up...by incompetent parents allowing the TV to raise their kids for them. The worst beliefs they absorb are "just believe in yourself, and your most extravagant dreams will come true without effort" (courtesy of said TV, also reinforced at school) and "you will always be protected from the consequences of your actions, however irresponsible" (courtesy the parents; schools may attempt to correct, but parents will typically undermine them). If kids are getting messed up by gender roles, I'm just not seeing it.

Something pretty ****ed up seems to be happening to young men that is not having the same impact on young women.

Table 39. Death rates for suicide, by sex, race, Hispanic origin, and age: United States, selected years 1950-2010
              1950 1960 1970 1980 1990 2000 2009 2010
Male
15-24 years..  6.5  8.2 13.5 20.2 22.0 17.1 16.1 16.9
 15-19 years.  3.5  5.6  8.8 13.8 18.1 13.0 11.6 11.7
 20-24 years.  9.3 11.5 19.3 26.8 25.7 21.4 20.8 22.2

Female
15-24 years..  2.6  2.2  4.2  4.3  3.9  3.0  3.6  3.9
 15-19 years.  1.8  1.6  2.9  3.0  3.7  2.7  3.2  3.1
 20-24 years.  3.3  2.9  5.7  5.5  4.1  3.2  4.1  4.7

I found the cdc numbers here, labelled as Hispanic, but has data for all races by sex.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/2011/039.pdf

[C0ckney]

Re: crime, I have heard that police face a lot of pressure to play down crime, so as to keep reporting improved performance year after year.

i doubt that pressure on the police to make the crime figures look good is something new. also the way we measure crime has improved significantly over the years.

interestingly, even though crime is going down (at least according to all the evidence i've seen), our fear of crime has risen. i suspect this may be due to improvements in communication technology. whereas before, we would have to wait some time - in the era of newspapers, the next day, in the era of TV at least until the morning/evening news - before hearing about some grizzly crime. now we can hear about it instantly, even on the other side of the world, with 24 hour news and the internet and this must affect our perceptions of these events, especially among those who can remember the era before 24 hour news/internet.

I'm also not convinced that a more prosperous society would entail less crime. Or that we are necessarily a more prosperous society; I keep hearing that income inequality is on the rise.

if you take a long view and look back even a few decades, it becomes fairly clear that we are more prosperous than we used to be. the further back you go, the clearer it becomes. far fewer people commit crimes out of sheer want these days, because of social safety nets. most small property crimes are committed by addicts. income inequality is increasing, and this does have some negative effects. however, interestingly, many people warned at the start of the current downturn that crime would increase. in fact, in europe at least, the reverse has happened and crime has continued to fall. i think this is the result of social safety nets working so that people, even if they lose their jobs, are not so desperate that they have to turn to crime. there are also other factors, such as better policing and security (stealing seen as more risky, a greater chance of getting caught) and the general decline in violence in society.

And then there's climate change. A more peaceful, sedate existence is not necessarily a given for the future, even if we have it now.

sure, no one really knows what will happen in the future, but a good starting point is to look at current and past trends.

[C0ckney]

I've heard a lot about the decrease in violence. Haven't actually read Pinker's book, but I've wondered: how does he account for the fact that, halfway through the twentieth century, we developed weapons which made the till-then-increasing trend of scorched-earth total war untenable?

i'm not sure i see your point here i'm afraid. if i have a weapon and don't use it, i'm not comitting any violence, no matter how big or nasty it is.

[C0ckney]

Data seems hard to find, but this says suicide rates of 15-24 yos more than doubled from 1950 to 2010 (4.5 to 10.0 per 100K). The rate really takes off by 1980 (12.3) and peaks in 1990 (13.2).

Female suicide rates are a fraction of male, but that's for all ages.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0779940.html

They site the CDC.

that's very interesting, i'll have to take a look at that. thanks nye.

[notyoueither]

If kids are getting messed up by gender roles, I'm just not seeing it.

'Gender roles' is a pretty broad term. How many men here who are attached to a woman earn less than she does?

Base only!