Adam Smith. Communist

[Felch]

Okay, so since the education policy I support won't solve an intractable social problem (one that it was never intended to address), it's better to ignore the wishes of parents and continue sending their kids to failing schools. Sava loves poor people so much, he makes sure they never have any opportunity to lift themselves out of poverty.

[notyoueither]

Err, you want the government to pay for private education so billions of tax dollars can pour into the profits of private companies?

Why not? Whoever can deliver the best service for the best price should get the benefit of dollars spent. That is the thing that makes a regulated market system better than all the others, isn't it?

[regexcellent]

Kentonio, the conservative, is against spending money in such a way that is profitable for private companies.

[notyoueither]

To be fair to him, there are conservatives elsewhere who are against for profit medicine at state expense as well.

In some ways conservative is relative.

[regexcellent]

It's the way he spoke with disdain about taxpayer dollars going to for-profit companies, as if there is something wrong with profit.

[kentonio]

It's the way he spoke with disdain about taxpayer dollars going to for-profit companies, as if there is something wrong with profit.

You know what I'm against? I'm against people pretending that the world runs best when its all 'yay free market economy!' and then expecting the taxpayers to subsidize their ****ty businesses to basically act like a socialized program, but one where a ton of money gets taken out the system in profit margins.

The reason you have ****ty public schools is because you're too damn stupid to actually fix the ****ty schools and instead just spout this meaningless crap about how the entire system should be private (yet taxpayer funded anyway).

[notyoueither]

It's the way he spoke with disdain about taxpayer dollars going to for-profit companies, as if there is something wrong with profit.

He's from a place where people may be conditioned to see that in medicine and education as immoral, unethical, or somesuch. I know I am.

[notyoueither]

You know what I'm against? I'm against people pretending that the world runs best when its all 'yay free market economy!' and then expecting the taxpayers to subsidize their ****ty businesses to basically act like a socialized program, but one where a ton of money gets taken out the system in profit margins.

The reason you have ****ty public schools is because you're too damn stupid to actually fix the ****ty schools and instead just spout this meaningless crap about how the entire system should be private (yet taxpayer funded anyway).

If profit motives and the market can do everything else so well, why would a well-regulated profit driven system not be a good check against the problems of public delivery of essential services?

[regexcellent]

Why would you expect quality service without profit? Is profit not the incentive for quality service? You're not helping your case here ken.

The problem with schools in this country--bear in mind that only some of our schools are ****ty--is labor unions. That is the heart and soul of the problem. They operate the school system for the benefit of teachers instead of students. Voucher schools break the backs of the unions by producing competition that they can't keep up with.

Whatever you think of voucher schools is irrelevant. In places where they exist, like Washington DC, parents massively prefer them. That is what matters. The parents' choices for their children. Clearly, the parents, who are closer to the problem and the people that it impacts, have made the calculation that voucher schools are better for their kids.

[Colonâ„¢]

Elementary and secondary state schools generally don't have open enrollment in the US, right?

[kentonio]

If profit motives and the market can do everything else so well, why would a well-regulated profit driven system not be a good check against the problems of public delivery of essential services?

They don't do everything else well, they do certain things well. They are generally terrible at providing consistent, long term services at a continually high standard, because there's always some dick trying to wangle an extra .5% profit margin to increase their standing with shareholders or cement their position. When that happens with education or healthcare there's usually some generation of poor shmucks who end up having their life ruined.

Obviously public systems are also prone to ****ing up, but less so when there's public accountability and no drive for profit in the system.

[notyoueither]

They don't do everything else well, they do certain things well. They are generally terrible at providing consistent, long term services at a continually high standard, because there's always some dick trying to wangle an extra .5% profit margin to increase their standing with shareholders or cement their position. When that happens with education or healthcare there's usually some generation of poor shmucks who end up having their life ruined.

Obviously public systems are also prone to ****ing up, but less so when there's public accountability and no drive for profit in the system.

Woah, that's a pretty bleak view of things. If it's that bad I'd expect various statist systems to outperform capitalist systems in a wide number of areas. Unfortunately for your argument, usually they do not.

The weakness of private that you see is easily overcome through regulation, transparency, and consumer choice. I see more ****ing up when state systems have no reason to pay attention to outcomes (consumers). Having to compete for patients and students would go a long way to fixing problems that I see in the public systems that I am familiar with.

[Sava]

Why would you expect quality service without profit? Is profit not the incentive for quality service? You're not helping your case here ken.

Uhmmm explain how CEO's profits make a minimum wage worker give you better service?

[Sava]

I swear to God. Market toolbags are such idiots.

[kentonio]

Woah, that's a pretty bleak view of things. If it's that bad I'd expect various statist systems to outperform capitalist systems in a wide number of areas. Unfortunately for your argument, usually they do not.

Examples please, you seem to be beginning with the assumption of having already proven your case. In the UK we nationalized and then re-privatized a large number of industries, and there were some very stark lessons as to the benefits, risks and consequences of each. Interestingly we have never felt the desire to privatize state schooling, despite also having some absolutely excellent public (private) schools. Same with healthcare. Those services are just totally unsuitable for systems that demand consistent performance at the lowest levels as well as the highest.

The weakness of private that you see is easily overcome through regulation, transparency, and consumer choice. I see more ****ing up when state systems have no reason to pay attention to outcomes (consumers). Having to compete for patients and students would go a long way to fixing problems that I see in the public systems that I am familiar with.

Since when did consumer choice play any significant role in healthcare or for that matter education? Sick people want to get better and parents want their kids to be well educated, it's rarely much more complicated than that. Since when was your average patient in any educated position to choose the kind of treatment that is going to be best for them?

As for competing for patients/students, how exactly do you ensure that every potential patient/student is catered for, when each hospital or school is a business that has to protect their bottom line? If there's a rural area with very small numbers, are those patients/kids basically just ****ed unless they are able/willing to travel a huge distance to wherever the closest school/hospital happens to be?

Health and Education are essential services and need to cater for everyone. Sometimes that means that they are going to be more expensive in one area than another, and that's something that can be dealt with when its a public not a private service.