European Union takes tougher stance on Israeli settlements

[C0ckney]

I believe...

assertions, conflations, irrelevancies etc.

you have missed the point.

the israelis (with the support of the western powers of course) stole the palestinian's land and expelled large numbers of palestinians. the palestinians were/are, understandably, very angry about this. the israelis continue to steal land and humiliate the palestinians. unsurprisingly, this makes the palestinians angry. if you steal people's land, they get angry about it. they react violently. this should not be difficult to understand.

[regexcellent]

you have missed the point.

the israelis (with the support of the western powers of course) stole the palestinian's land and expelled large numbers of palestinians. the palestinians were/are, understandably, very angry about this. the israelis continue to steal land and humiliate the palestinians. unsurprisingly, this makes the palestinians angry. if you steal people's land, they get angry about it. they react violently. this should not be difficult to understand.

This is an insane misrepresentation of the truth, but even if we do take it at face value none of it matters in the slightest. The Jews are there now, they've been there for decades, they need a state of their own and this is where it is now, and to still be angry about land that you've never seen let alone lived in is absurd. We're not going to forcibly relocate the Jews out of Israel. If we have to forcibly relocate some people to stop them from shooting anti-tank missiles at school buses and bombarding civilian population centers then that's more reasonable.

If I'm following you here: settlements are not good for their own sake, but useful as a bargaining chip--only Israel shouldn't ever give them up in a bargain because the Palestinians can't be trusted. So they're a valuable bargaining chip that can't actually be used for bargaining, which makes them what? Monopoly money?

They're a valuable bargaining chip for when the Palestinian leadership starts acting like mature adults (lol yes an unlikely scenario) and they should not be thrown away in such a manner that encourages more terrorism. Right now, the Israelis can't give anything to the Palestinians in return for nothing; it only tells them that their strategy of attacking civilians is working. The only thing they can do is punish them for harboring terrorists and attacking civilians, and then when the Palestinians are willing to start making deals, starting with accepting the legitimacy of the Jewish state of Israel, that's when they can start being more generous.

[C0ckney]

The problem is that if the Israelis give something (the settlements) they're not going to get anything in return. The Israelis pulled all settlements out or Gaza and unilaterally left and the only thing they got in return was a missile base from which terrorists can bombard civilians in the Negev.

you left out a rather large part of the story. the israelis imposed, and continue to impose a blockade, supposedly to put pressure on hamas, by land, sea and air. as well as having completely failed in its stated objective, this collective punishment has destroyed the economy and resulted in 40-50% unemployment and 60% of gazans being dependent on UN food aid. the israelis have deprived the gazan people of the means to support themselves and continue to humiliate them. it shouldn't be a surprise that they don't want to cover the israelis with flowers.

colon has already addressed the other points you made.

[regexcellent]

The blockade is critical to preventing rocket attacks on Israel. It keeps weapons components from getting in, and it stops them from building fortified bunkers. If Hamas stopped shooting rockets, the blockade would end. Instead they continue to shoot (much less effective) rockets in a steady trickle, which fortunately get shot down most of the time by Iron Dome ADA batteries.

I am 100% in favor of it for that reason.

Incidentally there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza; they have plenty of food, standard of living is actually increasing, they even have luxury consumer goods like MP3 players and so on, it's not actually half as bad as you're making it out to be.

[Wezil]

Recognition of Israel is something that will have to come with a comprehensive agreement (as is the returning of land).

[regexcellent]

Recognition of the Jewish State of Israel is something they're unwilling to do for any concession by Israel at the moment.

[Wezil]

Some would argue the Israelis won't give land back for any concessions.

That will be the art of the deal, no?

[regexcellent]

They will, they voluntarily pulled out of Gaza, but what they're not willing to do is stop building settlements in return for just talking rather than an actual agreement.

Besides which the vast majority of "settlement" construction is in areas that are already fully Jewish, or in annexed areas like Jerusalem. I might see getting mad at settlements right up alongside the Jordan River but that's not where they are.

[Wezil]

They will, they voluntarily pulled out of Gaza, but what they're not willing to do is stop building settlements in return for just talking rather than an actual agreement.

I do believe that would be covered by "comprehensive agreement".

Besides which the vast majority of "settlement" construction is in areas that are already fully Jewish, or in annexed areas like Jerusalem. I might see getting mad at settlements right up alongside the Jordan River but that's not where they are.

Inevitably it will involve them giving back something they don't want to give back. There will have to be some "give".

[C0ckney]

This is an insane misrepresentation of the truth,

no it isn't. the israelis stole the palestinian's land, and continue to do so. everybody accepts this. even leading zionists.

We came here to a country that was populated by Arabs and we are building here a Hebrew, a Jewish state; instead of the Arab villages, Jewish villages were established. You even do not know the names of those villages, and I do not blame you because these villages no longer exist. There is not a single Jewish settlement that was not established in the place of a former Arab Village.

but even if we do take it at face value none of it matters in the slightest. The Jews are there now, they've been there for decades, they need a state of their own and this is where it is now, and to still be angry about land that you've never seen let alone lived in is absurd. We're not going to forcibly relocate the Jews out of Israel. If we have to forcibly relocate some people to stop them from shooting anti-tank missiles at school buses and bombarding civilian population centers then that's more reasonable.

israeli was created in 1948. there are plenty of people alive whose land was stolen. i'm talking about why there is bad blood between the israelis and palestinians. the reason is obvious. the israelis stole the land, they are continuing to do so. you, for some insane reason, seem to think this is not only acceptable, but praiseworthy.

how to resolve the current situation is a different discussion. in my view there are two acceptable alternatives. the first is that israel should withdraw to the 1967 borders and dismantle the illegal settlements, leaving a viable palestinian state. the second would be a single state, comprising israel and the occupied territories, with power sharing between the jewish and arab populations.

[Wezil]

Which of the two is preferable/doable to your mind?

I'm in favour of the two state route.

[Traianvs]

The blockade is critical to preventing rocket attacks on Israel. It keeps weapons components from getting in, and it stops them from building fortified bunkers. If Hamas stopped shooting rockets, the blockade would end. Instead they continue to shoot (much less effective) rockets in a steady trickle, which fortunately get shot down most of the time by Iron Dome ADA batteries.

I am 100% in favor of it for that reason.

Incidentally there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza; they have plenty of food, standard of living is actually increasing, they even have luxury consumer goods like MP3 players and so on, it's not actually half as bad as you're making it out to be.

What is that latest claim based on, if I may ask?

I fail to see though, if the intended goal is to prevent rocket attacks, why they are still happening? Clearly that policy isn't working, wouldn't you agree?

[Elok]

Besides which the vast majority of "settlement" construction is in areas that are already fully Jewish, or in annexed areas like Jerusalem. I might see getting mad at settlements right up alongside the Jordan River but that's not where they are.

Land ownership

By Israeli law, privately owned land can not be part of a settlement, unless the land in question has been confiscated for military purposes.[88] In 2006 Peace Now acquired a report, which it claims was leaked from the Israeli Government's Civil Administration, indicating that up to 40 percent of the land Israel plans to retain in the West Bank is privately owned by Palestinians.[121] Peace Now called this a violation of Israeli law.[122] Peace Now published a comprehensive report about settlements on private lands.[123][124] In the wake of a legal battle, Peace Now lowered the figure to 32 percent, which the Civil Administration also denied.[125] The Washington Post reported that "The 38-page report offers what appears to be a comprehensive argument against the Israeli government's contention that it avoids building on private land, drawing on the state's own data to make the case."[126]

In February 2008, the Civil Administration stated that the land on which more than a third of West Bank settlements was built had been expropriated by the IDF for "security purposes."[127] The unauthorized seizure of private Palestinian land was defined by the Civil Administration itself as 'theft.'[128] According to B'Tselem, more than 42 percent of the West Bank are under control of the Israeli settlements, 21 percent of which was seized from private Palestinian owners, much of it in violation of the 1979 Israeli Supreme Court decision.[59]

In 1979, the government decided to extend settlements or build new ones only on "state lands".[38][88]

A secret database, drafted by a retired senior officer, Baruch Spiegel, on orders from former defense minister Shaul Mofaz, found that some settlements deemed legal by Israel were illegal outposts, and that large portions of Ofra, Elon Moreh and Beit El were built on private Palestinian land. The "Spiegel report" was revealed by Haaretz in 2009. Many settlements are largely built on private lands, without approval of the Israeli Government.[129] According to Israel, the bulk of the land was vacant, was leased from the state, or bought fairly from Palestinian landowners.

Invoking the Absentee Property Law to transfer, sell or lease property in East Jerusalem owned by Palestinians who live elsewhere without compensation has been criticized both inside and outside of Israel.[130] Opponents of the settlements claim that "vacant" land belonged to Arabs who fled or collectively to an entire village, a practice that developed under Ottoman rule. B'Tselem charged that Israel is using the absence of modern legal documents for the communal land as a legal basis for expropriating it. These "abandoned lands" are sometimes laundered through a series of fraudulent sales.[131]

According to Amira Hass, one of the techniques used by Israel to expropriate Palestinian land is to place desired areas under a 'military firing zone' classification, and then issue orders for the evacuation of Palestinians from the villages in that range, while allowing contiguous Jewish settlements to remain unaffected.[132]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement#Land_ownership

[C0ckney]

Incidentally there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza; they have plenty of food, standard of living is actually increasing, they even have luxury consumer goods like MP3 players and so on, it's not actually half as bad as you're making it out to be.

nearly 2/3rds of the population on UN food aid and things are 'not that bad'. seriously reg, this is delusional stuff you're writing here.

The blockade is critical to preventing rocket attacks on Israel. It keeps weapons components from getting in, and it stops them from building fortified bunkers. If Hamas stopped shooting rockets, the blockade would end. Instead they continue to shoot (much less effective) rockets in a steady trickle, which fortunately get shot down most of the time by Iron Dome ADA batteries.

no one would argue against a blockade on weapons reaching gaza. however, as everyone knows, it goes much further than that, and punishes everyone in gaza, the vast majority of whom have nothing whatsoever to do with rocket attacks.

here is a list of items banned at one time or another, by the blockade (quite a long list i'm afraid).

List no. 1: Items Subject to Specific Permission
1. Arms and Munitions: forbidden transfer under all circumstances across Israel's frontiers without specific permits - as defined in the Control of Exports Security Order (Arms and Munitions) 5768-2008, and in the Control of Exports Security Order (Missile Equipment) 5768-2008.
2. Dual Use goods and items: liable to be used, side by side with their civilian purposes, for the development, production, installation or enhancement of military capabilities and terrorist capacities. This list comprises:
Items listed under the Wassenaar Arrangement: As specified in the updated (2008) "Wassenaar Arrangement on Export Controls for Arms and Dual Use Goods and Technologies - List of Dual Use Goods and Technologies and Munitions List."
Items whose entry into the PA Areas is controlled based on Israeli legislation: i.e. materials and equipment liable to be used for terror attacks and technology that could be used by terrorists - as defined in the Control of Exports Security Order (Controlled Dual Use Equipment Transferred to the PA Areas) 5768-2008 and in Orders of the OC Central Command.
These lists include, in detail, a range of chemicals used in the production of explosives (including certain fertilizers); specific types of metal profiles; ball bearings; lathes and their parts; composite materials; hunting knives and machetes; optical equipment, such as lasers and night vision goggles; certain navigation aides; diving equipment; parachutes, gliders and other nonmotorized airborne vehicles; flares and fireworks; avionics and flight control equipment; missile related computer technologies; rock drills and equipment drawing water from excavated sites. Items not necessarily included in the lists above but whose entry into Gaza is controlled, as detailed below:
i. Items and chemicals which could be used in the production of high trajectory weapons (rockets and mortars) by Hamas and other terror groups in Gaza - Fertilizers or other mixtures - specifically containing KCl at more than 5%; Epoxy and Vinyl Ester resins; Hardeners for Epoxy Resins containing Amides or Amines; Accelerators for Vinyl Esters; HTPB; Water purification solutions at concentrations higher than 11%.
ii. Items used as raw materials for improving protection for terror activists - Fibers or woven fabrics containing Carbon or Glass variants.
iii. Vessels.
List No. 2: Construction Items and Materials to be Allowed Entry into Gaza only for PA-authorized Projects Implemented by the International Community
Israel will only permit their entry into Gaza to facilitate construction projects in Gaza which have been authorized by the PA and implemented and monitored by the international community. The often cited reason is that such materials could be used by Hamas for military purposes (building bunkers, fortifying positions and digging tunnels)
This list includes:
Portland cement and lime (in bulk, bags or barrels)
Natural and Quarry aggregates and all varieties of gravel
Ready concrete
Precast concrete elements and products
Steel elements and/or construction products
Iron for foundations and columns, at any diameter (including wielded steel nets)
Steel cables of any width
Forms for construction elements (plastics or galvanized iron)
Industrialized forms for casting concrete
Plastic or composite beams more than 4 mm thick
Thermal isolation materials and products
Blocs (at any width) - Concrete; Silicate; Ytong or its equivalent; or gypsum
Materials and products for sealing structures
Asphalt and its components (Bitumen, emulsion) in aggregate or packaged
Steel elements or framing products for construction
Cast concrete elements and products for drainage over 1 m in diameter
Precast units and sea-borne containers
Vehicles, excluding private cars and including 4X4 vehicles and other categories of motor vehicles liable to be used in terror activities
Lumber beams and boards more than 2 cm thick, (liable to be used in "offensive" tunneling aimed at penetrating Israeli territory), unless incorporated in finished products

Food. According to a UN report, importation of lentils, pasta, tomato paste and juice has been restricted.[15] Pasta has since been allowed. Sugar has always been allowed.[14] Soda, juice, jam, spices, shaving cream, potato chips, cookies and candy are now permitted.[16] Fruit, milk products in small packages and frozen food products are also allowed.[14] Dry food,[17] ginger and chocolate were at one point barred.[18]

Household items. A4 paper,[18] crayons, stationary, soccer balls, and musical instruments have been, at times, banned for import.[17] According to AFP other banned goods include toilet paper,[4] though the BBC lists it as permitted.[3] According to the Haaretz the following items were banned in 2009: books, candles, crayons, clothing, cups, cutlery, crockery, electric appliances such as refrigerators and washing machines, glasses, light bulbs, matches, musical instruments, needles, sheets, blankets, shoes, mattresses, spare machine and car parts, and threads.[14]

Reconstruction materials. Amnesty International and other organisations report that cement, glass, steel, bitumen, wood, paint, doors, plastic pipes, metal pipes, metal reinforcement rods, aggregate, generators, high voltage cables and wooden telegraph poles are high priority reconstruction materials currently with no or highly limited entry into Gaza through official crossings.[19] A UN report by Kevin M. Cahill said reconstruction was halted because of lack of steel, cement or glass, among other building materials.[15]

Fuel. Fuel had not been imported from Israel since 2008. While fuel is available from Egypt, in contrast to Israeli fuel, it damages the newer cars in Gaza and causes malfunctions. Israel allowed only limited amounts of industrial fuel into Gaza prior to June 2010.[14]

Agriculture and fishing. According to Gisha, fishing ropes and rods, ginger and chocolate, hatcheries and spare parts for hatcheries, were at one point barred.[18]

Medical material. Batteries for hearing aids have been restricted.[15] Wheelchairs, at various times, have been banned.[17]

no chocolate, crayons or toilet paper, that'll show hamas!

it's collective punishmet, pure and simple.

[ZEE]

tl;dr