European Union takes tougher stance on Israeli settlements

[molly bloom]

We will be handing out free copies of Mein Kampf though.

Phew. Thank goodness, I misplaced mine at the last official Euro-Communist bash a Jew day. Of course a lot of those self-hating anti-Zionist Jewish Eurocoms were bashing themselves frenziedly to prove how anti-Israel and secular they were.

[MikeH]

I eat ****loads of pork.

[molly bloom]

I eat ****loads of pork.

And you probably excrete loads of it too. Digested, that is. It's available in Israel under the name white meat, as I recall.

And odd how kosher butchers here and in Golders Green & Manchester 'happen' to have kosher turkeys at Christmas. Just for the secular self-haters of course. Me, I'm just happy to get decent bagels/beigels, salt beef sandwiches and chollah bread easily.

[giblets]

I'd agree save for the 'becoming' . 'Has become' is in fact the proper grammatical usage.

"Has become" would imply that the transformation is complete, which may be true, but that has nothing to do with grammar.

[regexcellent]

has it ever occured to you that these might be linked?

I believe when Israel drops a bomb on Hamas missile sites the euros refer to that as "disproportionate use of force" for some stupid reason. If that's disproportionate, then shooting missiles at ****ing schoolchildren definitely is.

Besides which, no they are not linked. It's not like the terrorists would stop blowing up Israelis if they caved to their demands, that would just encourage more terrorism. The only thing the Israelis can do to stop terrorists from killing their civilians is building walls to keep them out, bombing them, blockading them so they can't receive weapons, and invading periodically to root them out. Which is what they do, and that's why it's totally justified.

Hamas and Hezbollah want every Jew in the middle east dead. They say as much all the time. They are not interested in peace. The Arabs would not be interested in peace if Israel confined itself to the '67 borders. They weren't interested in peace in '67, when Israel did that, or in '48, when Israel was confined to the UN partition plan. The reason peace talks fail time after time isn't because Israel is intransigent about settlements, but because the Palestinians are intransigent about allowing there to exist a Jewish state of Israel.

[Wezil]

You went from Hamas --> Arabs.

If you treat them all as extremists the moderates will never be able to prevail.

[regexcellent]

I'm aware of that. I'm referring to the Arabs with respect to the wars Israel fought in the middle of the 20th century, and Hamas/Hezbollah now. The Arab countries have mostly given up on fighting Israel due to getting defeated militarily and Israel's probable ownership of nuclear weapons. Today, the fighting continues in the form of extremist terrorists.

Arabs in general don't like Israel but most aren't in a hot war with them (although that's not due in the slightest to rulers listening to public opinion).

[Wezil]

You and I would probably agree on many parts of this debate. I just think if there is ever to be a peaceful future then control has to be taken from the extremists on both sides. The moderates will be marginalized (and the groups we despise empowered) if we allow the crazies to control the debate.

[Sava]

HC is becoming a "Stereotyped thing stupid Americans say" bot.

If he is, it's a relatively clever bot. Well coded.

Don't lump him in with the rest of us! We don't want him!

[Wezil]

The crazies on both sides have been in control of the debate for the last 65 years...

For the most part which why I'm not terribly optimistic.

Jordan plays nice these days and even Egypt under the MB were well behaved (I'm less optimistic on this front since the recent coup) so I think things are slowly working the right way.

We're at a point now imho where the Israelis have to give a real and sincere gesture that they are seriously interested in long term peace with the Palestinians and not just a continuation of the status quo. The moderates on the other side need something real to take to their people after a very long period of sfa.

[regexcellent]

The problem is that if the Israelis give something (the settlements) they're not going to get anything in return. The Israelis pulled all settlements out or Gaza and unilaterally left and the only thing they got in return was a missile base from which terrorists can bombard civilians in the Negev. I'm not a fan of the settlements, but they are a bargaining chip, and it's one Israel shouldn't squander by using it to actually encourage more terrorism and tell the Palestinians that terrorism will get them what they want.

The recent coup in Egypt probably means better relations with Israel. Of all the elements of Egyptian society, the military is the least keen on war with Israel, for obvious reasons.

[Colonâ„¢]

The problem is that if the Israelis give something (the settlements) they're not going to get anything in return. The Israelis pulled all settlements out or Gaza and unilaterally left and the only thing they got in return was a missile base from which terrorists can bombard civilians in the Negev. I'm not a fan of the settlements, but they are a bargaining chip, and it's one Israel shouldn't squander by using it to actually encourage more terrorism and tell the Palestinians that terrorism will get them what they want.

The recent coup in Egypt probably means better relations with Israel. Of all the elements of Egyptian society, the military is the least keen on war with Israel, for obvious reasons.

Israel still has an outstanding offer from the Arab League for recognition and normalisation of relations in return for withdrawal from the occupied territories.

And Morsi cracked down harder on smuggling into Gaza than Mubarak ever did.

[Elok]

If I'm following you here: settlements are not good for their own sake, but useful as a bargaining chip--only Israel shouldn't ever give them up in a bargain because the Palestinians can't be trusted. So they're a valuable bargaining chip that can't actually be used for bargaining, which makes them what? Monopoly money?

XPost.

[Wezil]

I think you got it.

[Elok]

Yes it is. Either you support Israel 100% or you're the next Hitler and want to kill all the Jews.

Never forget the dark night of Kristallnacht, when Jewish-owned businesses all over the Reich were defaced with a ghastly, firmly-worded notice taped to their doors:

FROM YOUR LOCAL CHAPTER OF THE NAZI PARTY
Cooperation with the Hated Zionist Menace Committee

Please be advised that, while we consider you a filthy blot on the very soul of the proud Aryan race, we fully intend to continue cooperating with you in matters of mutual interest. However, we regret to inform you that we can no longer participate in those of your accursed conspiracies which do not fit in with our moral beliefs, such as poisoning wells or sucking the blood out of our sweet, innocent blond-haired babies.

Best Wishes,
The Nazis
Heil Hitler, etc., etc.