The Zimmerman Trial

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Hmm. Mall cops are a slightly different case because they're only on private property. Neighborhood watches aren't restricted to that.

[Sava]

I didn't think this thread could piss me off any more.

[Uncle Sparky]

I think all pictures of woman's butts should be banned... trying to piss Sava off

[PLATO]

Really? The part where he didn't think Trayvon was dangerous, or the part where he didn't pursue him? If he didn't think he was dangerous, why was he reporting him to the police? If he wasn't pursuing him, why was he out of the car?

Nonsensical response that demonstrates a lack of knowledge of the facts of this case.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Then educate me.

[PLATO]

Let me also say this...The Constitution limits the Government...not the people. Law limits the people. In the absence of a law prohibiting it, there is nothing that prevents the people from doing it.

THAT is the principle of the constitution. There is no underlying principle of the Constitution that has anything to do with Neighborhood watch groups.

If there is any underlying principle of the Constitution, it would be limited government and equality of the people in their rights.

[MrFun]

PLATO, unfortunately in the due process of law, Martin and Zimmerman were not equal in their rights.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

If there is any underlying principle of the Constitution, it would be limited government

Quite true. And what main mechanism is used to ensure limited government?

Are you sure you disagree with me?

[The Mad Monk]

I didn't think this thread could piss me off any more.

Zimmerman got some whoop ass from Treyvon because Treyvon though Zimmerman was gay. His girlfriend said so.

[PLATO]

PLATO, unfortunately in the due process of law, Martin and Zimmerman were not equal in their rights.

I agree. Zimmerman's prosecution was a blatant disregard for his rights.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Zimmerman got some whoop ass from Treyvon because Treyvon though Zimmerman was gay. His girlfriend said so.

Why do libruhls hate hispanics and gays? or is it just a black thing?

[PLATO]

Quite true. And what main mechanism is used to ensure limited government?

Are you sure you disagree with me?

I am quite sure.

And what qualifications did he have to do that job? Who determined if he was doing the job well, based on what criteria? What would happen if he wasn't doing the job well? What processes are in place if somebody wanted to claim he wasn't doing the job well?

I don't have a problem with police because there are well defined answers to those questions (even if they are not always implemented quite as written). Quasi-police volunteers...well, it's not a job that amateurs should get involved in, it's too important for that.

Really? It's not about checks and balances? About the people in charge of protecting and serving the community being ultimately beholden to that same community in clearly outlined ways?

That attitude is the core principle of the U.S. Constitution.

I am sure that you were taught, as were most people in the USA, that the federal government is accountable to the people. This is not actually the case. The federal government exists to serve the States. Only the House of Representatives was set up to be accountable to the people. Even the President isn't elected by the people...he/she is elected by the State Legislatures. Currently all States have the mechanism set up to where they allow the people to voice their opinion through an election, but it need not be so.

So...in saying that it is a Constitutional principle that a neighborhood watch representative is Constitutionally accountable to his community is patently incorrect (which you have been told by numerous people in this thread).

In fact, their is no Constitutionality question involved in Neighborhood Watch at any level.

You seem to be debating derived perceptions from the checks and balances of federal government and trying to relate them to local situations. This is not possible and it is even set up to be not possible.

So...I am quite sure that we disagree.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

I am sure that you were taught, as were most people in the USA, that the federal government is accountable to the people. This is not actually the case. The federal government exists to serve the States. Only the House of Representatives was set up to be accountable to the people. Even the President isn't elected by the people...he/she is elected by the State Legislatures. Currently all States have the mechanism set up to where they allow the people to voice their opinion through an election, but it need not be so.

So...in saying that it is a Constitutional principle that a neighborhood watch representative is Constitutionally accountable to his community is patently incorrect (which you have been told by numerous people in this thread).

I never claimed the second half of that. I claimed that there should be similar principles at work when developing organizations that take on (in this case, extend) governmental roles, specifically the idea that ultimate accountability is to the people and that rule is only acceptable if that accountability is clearly defined. (And yes, it is removed from the people directly at various levels of government including the state/federal divide, but ultimately it is derived from a bunch of people getting together and saying "sure, we'll let you rule us, under the following conditions...")

In fact, their is no Constitutionality question involved in Neighborhood Watch at any level.

Yes, I'm pretty sure I said that.

[PLATO]

Maybe I am misunderstanding something here, but I am having a hard time reconciling your last post with your previous posts.

????

[Koyaanisqatsi]

It was hair-splitting. The wording you used was Constitutionality, not the principles embodied in the Constitution. I was saying that I've never argued the actual legality of neighborhood watches or that there's any implications for them in the Constitution (beyond the obvious), just that they are not accountable and transparent. The argument eventually loops around to calling neighborhood watches governmental organizations ("Where do we get government from? A bunch of people getting together and agreeing on the common good, which is what a neighborhood watch is") and then asking why they aren't accountable in the same way that most organs of government in the US are ("Even the school board gets elected for crying out loud, and that's further from the core function of government than providing for common safety.") At some point I might have compared Batman to the Supreme Court. I don't know. I hadn't gotten that far yet. (Well, ok, I obviously got that far, but hadn't made a decision yet.)