Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

[Sava]

You made the Fascism claim, not me.

I joined this conversation by saying it isn't really Big Brother but is more a case of the reverse (people giving, not the State taking).

Absolutely nothing you have argued refutes that.

I don't need to prove a negative. You haven't offered any evidence that any actual rights were surrendered. The onus is on you, not me.

Yes. People voluntarily stayed inside during the manhunt. That is not "surrendering rights" by any stretch of the imagination.

And you should feel shame for making such an idiotic leap in logic.

[PLATO]

I don't know about a police state, but I do know that there are a LOT more police than there was when I was a kid. I do know that the police are a LOT more aggressive than they used to be. I do know that we have the highest per capita prison population in the world. I do know that my government is collecting metadata on me WITHOUT my knowledge (until just recently). I do know that Americans can now be categorized as "enemy combatants" and held without trial or due process. I do know that my government can order the killing of an American overseas if THEY determine he is a threat to the state,

But, I don't know about us being a police state or anything....

[Wezil]

I don't know your age PLATO (I'm too lazy to look) but I think you have a few decades behind you....

Do you think you are more free or less free today than you were 30 years ago? Completely subjective of course but there are plenty of geezers here to sample from...

[Sava]

I don't know about a police state, but I do know that there are a LOT more police than there was when I was a kid. I do know that the police are a LOT more aggressive than they used to be. I do know that we have the highest per capita prison population in the world. I do know that my government is collecting metadata on me WITHOUT my knowledge (until just recently). I do know that Americans can now be categorized as "enemy combatants" and held without trial or due process. I do know that my government can order the killing of an American overseas if THEY determine he is a threat to the state,

But, I don't know about us being a police state or anything....

The War on Drugs(tm) is more to blame for this than anything. And now, the conservative push for the War On Mexicans.

Seriously. They want to make our entire southern border into Fortress America. That doesn't concern anyone? Walls can keep people in just as much as they can keep people out. And think about all the infrastructure needed to deport all these people. Nobody is going to "self-deport". Republicans are opposed to legalizing and documenting these people in any form. So that means deporting them all. That means prison camps. That means an army of immigration people.

I thought conservatives were capitalists. Where is the support for the free flow of labor across borders? Immigrants are just filling an economic need. If anything, Republicans could stage a comeback by getting on the "government is inefficient" horse with regards to getting more people documented faster.

And if you really wanna be racist, let the private home market keep the Mexicans out of the suburbs. It's worked well keeping the blacks out.

Kind of a threadjack... but fighting Islamists overseas, more efficient law enforcement methods here, and keeping info classified with heavy handed prosecution isn't the onset of the police state.

[Colon™]

What argument? I don't have or need an argument.

You claim freedoms are being surrendered. I asked for a specific example. You provide none.

This is just me making fun of a crazy homeless person.

"A poll conducted by the Pew Research Center found that 56 percent of Americans consider the National Security Agency’s tracking of millions of phone calls “acceptable.”"

http://www.registerguard.com/rg/opinion/30012137-78/metadata-nsa-calls-information-phone.html.csp

Another article got posted here somewhere that showed an even greater majority of Americans supporting listening in when one of the participants was a foreigner.

Even though Americans do believe the government is getting too powerful as a whole, they also seem to have a tendency of supporting individual measures.

[kentonio]

The "freedom" to reveal classified US military intelligence is under attack, I guess.

Personally, I think the leaks and stuff are more helpful than not. The prosecution of Manning, for instance, strikes me as an abuse of power.

But this isn't anything new. If anything, the fact we are discussing this stuff now is a sign of progress. During WWI, you could be locked up for being anti-war. In the 50's, you could be labeled a communist.

If anything, things are improving, not getting worse.

No, they really, really are not. Despite various times when the government performed unduly harsh acts such as locking up anti-war people, or interning US citizens etc, there has never been a time when quite much of peoples communications were so freely accessible to the government en masse. Sure the government could tap your phone or spy on you if they really wanted, but they couldn't just trawl the communications of huge numbers of people with very little effort. Given how large a proportion of communication is now carried out electronically, it should terrify the living **** out of everyone that programs like Prism exist.

And many of the same people decrying the big bad government are the ones who ***** about the commies and how evil they are... and support a political movement who wants to return the country to a time when women couldn't vote and black people were property.

There are certainly people who were all the way up Bush Jr's ass when he brought in the Patriot Act who are now squealing like girls because they get to attack Obama. Does this mean that everything Obama does has to be good and right? Are we not allowed to attack him for things like this because the other side is worse?

It's a combination of mental illness (tinfoil hat nonsense) and partisan bull****.

I'm getting really bored of linking to articles showing how utterly ridiculous this is. It is not a conspiracy theory, the US government can tap anyone the hell they please including US elected officials with only the lightest of oversight. When the current President of the United States was previously tapped by the NSA while a senator, how can you have even the tiniest bit of faith in the system? What happens next time a President or congressional leader decides it's time to slash intelligence budgets, and those same intelligence agencies have proof that politician was previous conducting an affair or was a closet homosexual? You have absolute trust that that information would never be quietly let slip to the politician in question?

The chicken little crap also makes it difficult for us to focus on the real issues here. It's impossible to have an intelligent discussion on the serious issues of accountability and oversight with all the ridiculous hyperbole.

The real issue is that we have next to no right to privacy left. The Patriot Act (and the UK versions that passed) removed huge safeguards on our right to privacy, and back then when some of us were screaming about that most people didn't give a ****. Ok, so now you still don't give a ****, but at least own that and admit you don't care. Pretending that this is all hyperbole and that we could be calmly discussing accountability and oversight is laughable. The 'oversight' is secret, the subject matter is secret, any accountability is held in secret. You can't know whether its being done honestly and fairly because its all secret and if you know anything and reveal that to the public they will hunt you to the ends of the earth. Sleep well.

[Wezil]

It's never partisan for me. I hate all political parties equally.

[PLATO]

I don't know your age PLATO (I'm too lazy to look) but I think you have a few decades behind you....

Do you think you are more free or less free today than you were 30 years ago? Completely subjective of course but there are plenty of geezers here to sample from...

I'm 50...

No, I do not feel as free as I used to by any stretch. Just one quick example...and it is more to the attitude going around now than actual denial of freedom:

When I was around 20 I got pulled over for speeding. I got out of the car and me and the cop talked and joked a bit about life in general while we are leaning up against his car. We then sit down in his front seat and he writes me a ticket. Very cordial and friendly.

Last year I got pulled over (at almost the same place strangely enough). I hop out of my car to go and chat with the cop. Hand on his gun...he orders me to freeze. I am then bent over the trunk of my car and frisked and ordered to remain standing there while he goes back to his car. After less than 5 minutes a second cop pulls up. This one walks over behind me while the first one gets out of his car and hands me the ticket. I am then told to never leave my vehicle unless instructed to by the officer and told to go on my way.

No...I do not feel anywhere near as free as I did 30 years ago.

[Colon™]

The LAPD went pretty crazy during the Dorner search. It's not a matter of policy to shoot innocent people, but it is policy to give the trigger happy cops a slap on the wrist as punishment.

Overzealous law enforcement isn't all that new. Back in 1985 the Philadelphia police literally BOMBED a house which resulted in a fire destroying an entire block. Bat**** insane.

http://philly.curbed.com/archives/2013/05/13/how-philadelphia-became-the-city-that-bombed-itself.php

[Sava]

Pretending that this is all hyperbole and that we could be calmly discussing accountability and oversight is laughable.

they will hunt you to the ends of the earth. Sleep well.

"I'm not overreacting!

WE ARE ALL GONNA DIEEEEE"

[kentonio]

"I'm not overreacting!

WE ARE ALL GONNA DIEEEEE"

Feel free to go tell Snowden, Manning and Assange how hyperbolic that is.

[DaShi]

Traitors and perverts the lot of them!

[kentonio]

It's actually quite disconcerting to think how much we wouldn't know if it wasn't for those traitors and perverts..

[Wezil]

I'm 50...

No, I do not feel as free as I used to by any stretch. Just one quick example...and it is more to the attitude going around now than actual denial of freedom:

When I was around 20 I got pulled over for speeding. I got out of the car and me and the cop talked and joked a bit about life in general while we are leaning up against his car. We then sit down in his front seat and he writes me a ticket. Very cordial and friendly.

Last year I got pulled over (at almost the same place strangely enough). I hop out of my car to go and chat with the cop. Hand on his gun...he orders me to freeze. I am then bent over the trunk of my car and frisked and ordered to remain standing there while he goes back to his car. After less than 5 minutes a second cop pulls up. This one walks over behind me while the first one gets out of his car and hands me the ticket. I am then told to never leave my vehicle unless instructed to by the officer and told to go on my way.

No...I do not feel anywhere near as free as I did 30 years ago.

I notice it most in the area of privacy. From pervasive CCTV (public and private) to near-strip searches at the airport to this latest phone tapping BS it just seems like we are all starting to become real life Truman Show's. You literally have to seal yourself off at home to attain some modicum of privacy these days (presuming no nanny cams or spying game systems are present).

[DaShi]

When I was around 20 I got pulled over for speeding. I got out of the car and me and the cop talked and joked a bit about life in general while we are leaning up against his car. We then sit down in his front seat and he writes me a ticket. Very cordial and friendly.

Last year I got pulled over (at almost the same place strangely enough). I hop out of my car to go and chat with the cop. Hand on his gun...he orders me to freeze. I am then bent over the trunk of my car and frisked and ordered to remain standing there while he goes back to his car. After less than 5 minutes a second cop pulls up. This one walks over behind me while the first one gets out of his car and hands me the ticket. I am then told to never leave my vehicle unless instructed to by the officer and told to go on my way.

I agree that there seems to be a lot less of a sense of community in the US than there once was. I wouldn't call it the creeping of the police state. The cop is holding his gun, not because he's exercising his authority over you, but because he doesn't trust that you don't have a gun at ready yourself. This creates more of a wild west, state of nature kind of society where you can't trust anything. Oddly, this is exactly the conservative dream...