Benghazi Will Screw Obama, Which He Deserves

[kentonio]

Birther row began with Hillary Clinton

No, birther row began with some supporters of Hillary. Proving yet again that there are *******s in both parties.

[Tupac Shakur]

I've been following US politics for decades, and while the undercurrents of racism have always been there (in both parties let's be honest) they have literally exploded in the Republican party in recent years.

[dannubis]

Yes, you can laugh... you're dead.

[Elok]

Sorry Elok, plenty of it is racism. That is the only explanation for the birthers, which make up a frightening portion of the GOP.

I usually chalk that one up to the power of rumor and groupthink. I should say that there is a component of racism in the mix--no, of course we're not totally free of racism in this country--but it's not the main impetus behind opposition to Obama, and it was rather crass of Ken to call DD a racist with no evidence beyond "he dislikes a black president I like."

[dannubis]

Hmmm... it seems Elok can read other peoples minds in the same way Ken can.

[kentonio]

I usually chalk that one up to the power of rumor and groupthink. I should say that there is a component of racism in the mix--no, of course we're not totally free of racism in this country--but it's not the main impetus behind opposition to Obama, and it was rather crass of Ken to call DD a racist with no evidence beyond "he dislikes a black president I like."

"Not totally free of racism"? Is that meant to be a joke? On what planet exactly are you guys even close to being free of racism? I hear you guys endlessly repeating this stuff about how race isn't an issue any more while your citizens and your media reference race constantly and refer to blacks in ways that from here are quite shockingly derogatory.

As for it being 'crass' to call DD a racist, he's one of a group who not only oppose the president (who I don't particularly like incidentally) but who also refuse to accept the racism that pervades the party he supports. If the accusation of racism hurts his dainty feelings then maybe it's time he grew some balls and stood up to it among his own group instead of just pretending it isn't happening.

[Guynemer]

Oh give me a break, I'm really tired of this attitude of 'foreigners just don't understand our American ways'. I've been following US politics for decades, and while the undercurrents of racism have always been there (in both parties let's be honest) they have literally exploded in the Republican party in recent years. 9/11 provided the opening for racists to start spewing their hate publicly again with Muslims providing an easy target, and the election of Obama gave them the platform to expand on that.

You can all sit there and deny it's happening and it'll just get worse and worse, or you can face up to it and actually deal with it. Go read what a lot of prominent black writers have to say about this supposedly non-existent racism that's pervading American society recently, and then come back and tell me we're just making it up.

Where did anyone claim that racism doesn't exist?

We are simply pointing out that you throwing accusations of racism at anyone who disagrees with Obama is foolish. There are plenty of non-racist reasons to disagree with Obama. Yes, there are plenty of people who oppose him primarily on racial grounds. DD & HC & reg, et al, are not among them.

[DinoDoc]

If the accusation of racism hurts his dainty feelings then maybe it's time he grew some balls and stood up to it among his own group instead of just pretending it isn't happening.

It's basically just the claim that racism is the only reason not to support the President that annoys me which you and MrFun have made many times in the past.

[kentonio]

Where did anyone claim that racism doesn't exist?

We are simply pointing out that you throwing accusations of racism at anyone who disagrees with Obama is foolish. There are plenty of non-racist reasons to disagree with Obama.

There are absolutely plenty of reasons to disagree with him. I disagree with him on many things. It's kinda sad that despite me making that differentiation on several occasions already you're still saying it.

Yes, there are plenty of people who oppose him primarily on racial grounds. DD & HC & reg, et al, are not among them.

I don't think HC is in the slightest although he's young enough to not recognize how deep-seated racism works in politics. Reg has said several things before which are quite openly xenophobic and bordering on racist. DD just defends the GOP blindly and refuses to accept that any actions of his party could possibly carry racial connotations even when you'd need to be mentally deficient to not see them. Is that because he is racist? Perhaps not, but either he is or he's defending people who are and neither of those are good.

****, I'm certainly not perfect and none of us here are, but there's some things that should be stood up to when they start to raise their heads. As I've said numerous times now, I'm not a particular Obama fan. He's been a pretty weak president who's main redeeming quality has been that he's nothing like as bad as the other side would be right now. If however you can read the sheer spite filled hate that's poured out at him and the endless racist undertones and not feel slightly sickened by it, then I don't understand you at all.

Hell I always hated the 'Respect the office' line of thinking because it's traditionally let your presidents get away with far too much. Well I got my wish, it's gone now and that just happened to coincide with a black guy getting the top job.

[kentonio]

It's basically just the claim that racism is the only reason not to support the President that annoys me which you and MrFun have made many times in the past.

I've never said that's the only reason not to support him, the very idea of that is utterly absurd. Considering how little he's actually done that has been antithetical to Republican values however, race is about the only answer left to explain the hate and the utter contempt and disrespect shown towards the man.

[PLATO]

The saddest thing about this thread is how Americans apparently appear to some foreigners. I guess that the problems that we have are overshadowed in the media compared to the successes. Every western country has faced racism problems in its development. The U.S., over the last 40 years, has done a tremendous amount to combat it. Does racism still exist? Yes. Is it the focal point of our politics like ken seems to think. No, not at all.

Obama is hated because he represents a different type of government not because he is black. I do believe that there are probably some racism, but I don't think that is the major issue. The major issue is a resistance to change in my opinion. Many people want it...many don't. Those that don't see their whole concept of government being challenged and thus the hate and the anti-governmentism. People should remember though that he was elected on a "change" platform.

[snoopy369]

Yeah - that's honestly my biggest complaint about Obama; the fact that he didn't actually change much of anything either in our political discussion or in actuality. I don't agree with his politics, but I'd rather have seen him actually enact significant, meaningful legislation if for no other reason than to find out that indeed it doesn't work, and we then could move on to the right way to do things. How are we going to show the general population that the conservative economic model works if they don't see the liberal socioeconomic model not working? And if we're wrong, and the liberal socioeconomic model is right (or, perhaps more likely, if _elements_ of it are useful, as it's unlikely either model is 100% correct), wouldn't it be useful to find out?

Instead we have ... another five years so far of nothing changing. Even "Obamacare" is a huge disappointment because it doesn't really accomplish what the liberals want it to, and it doesn't accomplish (obviously) what the conservatives want. Get your namesake legislation right at least, for heaven's sake.

[kentonio]

The saddest thing about this thread is how Americans apparently appear to some foreigners. I guess that the problems that we have are overshadowed in the media compared to the successes. Every western country has faced racism problems in its development. The U.S., over the last 40 years, has done a tremendous amount to combat it.

We've all had some pretty terrible problems with racism. I think the thing that irritates me about the US however is that there seems to be this idea that it's something you've solved and that anyone who talks about it now is just doing so to take advantage of old wounds. That especially rankles when the people raising it are black intellectuals who both see and live with the continuing effects of racism but who get told (as Elok did earlier) that they're just 'making a living off it'.

As a country you deserve to be applauded for the huge leaps you've taken in race relations, and electing a black president was a huge step. When we elected Mrs Thatcher it did a great deal for women's rights, however we didn't suddenly solve gender inequality overnight. You've come a long way, but you have a long way still to go and that means accepting that there's still battles to fight.

Does racism still exist? Yes. Is it the focal point of our politics like ken seems to think. No, not at all.

I don't think it's a focal point, I think it's an ever present cancer that for a long time was mostly kept hidden (like it is in many countries including my own) but which was allowed to surface post 9/11. I don't think it drives US politics in any huge meaningful way, it's more like a dirty little trick that is still abused by certain politicians to whore for votes. The danger however is when it's allowed to enter mainstream political dialogue, and we've been getting dangerously close to that point over the last 5 years.

Obama is hated because he represents a different type of government not because he is black. I do believe that there are probably some racism, but I don't think that is the major issue. The major issue is a resistance to change in my opinion. Many people want it...many don't. Those that don't see their whole concept of government being challenged and thus the hate and the anti-governmentism. People should remember though that he was elected on a "change" platform.

If he'd actually done anything to enact change then I'd happily agree with you. That said there was always going to be a significant amount of racists that would hate him regardless. As recently as 2006 3% of voters polled said they wouldn't vote for an African American. 15% wouldn't vote for a Jew. A giant 54% wouldn't vote for a Muslim. Hell 8% wouldn't even vote for a woman! The idea that a candidates politics are the only motivation driving voters impressions are sadly pretty far from the mark.

[Felch]

If he'd actually done anything to enact change then I'd happily agree with you. That said there was always going to be a significant amount of racists that would hate him regardless. As recently as 2006 3% of voters polled said they wouldn't vote for an African American. 15% wouldn't vote for a Jew. A giant 54% wouldn't vote for a Muslim. Hell 8% wouldn't even vote for a woman! The idea that a candidates politics are the only motivation driving voters impressions are sadly pretty far from the mark.

3% of voters isn't something to get worked up about. I'd bet 3% of UK voters would never vote for a Catholic. ****, I bet 3% of UK voters wouldn't vote for anybody openly practicing any religion. It'd be ridiculous to vote for a religious nutter.

[kentonio]

3% of voters isn't something to get worked up about. I'd bet 3% of UK voters would never vote for a Catholic. ****, I bet 3% of UK voters wouldn't vote for anybody openly practicing any religion. It'd be ridiculous to vote for a religious nutter.

Couple of things.. 3% of Americans is 9 million people. 3% is also the percentage of people who were willing to openly admit to a researcher in the 21st century that they are racist. How high do you think the real number might just be?