Explosions at Boston Marathon

[giblets]

If you claim to base your principles on the idea that all men are created equal, then treating foreign civilians in a way that you would consider utterly unacceptable with your own is incredibly hypocritical.



You just managed to stumble over exactly why this strategy is so stupid and counterproductive. The Afghan civilians who are dying are not being killed because they chose to get involved, they are getting involved because they keep being killed in large numbers despite not having done anything wrong. Where's the lesson there exactly? Cross your fingers and hope your kids don't get murdered today?

They're not getting killed in number that are large compared to the country's population. Afghanistan is 30 million. Pakistan is 180 million. Drone strikes have killed several hundred civilians. The idea that this is going to swell the ranks of Al Qaeda is rather dubious. And the US Declaration of Independence isn't some international socialist document proclaiming we're all citizens of the world ffs.

[Hauldren Collider]

People rarely run in with gun and just massacre any local civilians in the process.

And we rarely run in with a drone and massacre local civilians. We actually are not trying to murder random pashtuns.

[kentonio]

They're not getting killed in number that are large compared to the country's population. Afghanistan is 30 million. Pakistan is 180 million. Drone strikes have killed several hundred civilians. The idea that this is going to swell the ranks of Al Qaeda is rather dubious.

That war has killed tens of thousands of civilians, the drone attacks just add a new indiscriminate edge to the whole thing. If you think that the US actions haven't swelled Al Queda's ranks then you're a fool. I just don't know any politer way to put that.

And the US Declaration of Independence isn't some international socialist document proclaiming we're all citizens of the world ffs.

That's exactly what it was seen as, and what America has ridden a wave of popularity based on. The idea that people EVERYWHERE deserve justice and freedom. If you now want to toss that away, then go for it. To be fair your actions over the last decade pretty much already have.

[kentonio]

And we rarely run in with a drone and massacre local civilians. We actually are not trying to murder random pashtuns.

Yet you keep doing it.

[giblets]

That war has killed tens of thousands of civilians, the drone attacks just add a new indiscriminate edge to the whole thing. If you think that the US actions haven't swelled Al Queda's ranks then you're a fool. I just don't know any politer way to put that.



That's exactly what it was seen as, and what America has ridden a wave of popularity based on. The idea that people EVERYWHERE deserve justice and freedom. If you now want to toss that away, then go for it. To be fair your actions over the last decade pretty much already have.

So it's actually not the drone strikes that are the issue, it's the war itself with its unfortunate consequence of some civilians getting killed, where the US overthrew the Taliban and installed a quasi-democratic government in Afghanistan, which you see as being a betrayal of the USA's foundational principles and counterproductive to American efforts to suppress Al Qaeda.

[kentonio]

So it's actually not the drone strikes that are the issue, it's the war itself with its unfortunate consequence of some civilians getting killed, where the US overthrew the Taliban and installed a quasi-democratic government in Afghanistan, which you see as being a betrayal of the USA's foundational principles and counterproductive to American efforts to suppress Al Qaeda.

Nope, it was the point where the 'mission' became more important than things like basic human rights. China locks up and tortures dissidents and we all go 'Evil!!'. America now routinely murders innocent Afghan civilians, and we're supposed to go 'Yay, freedom!'?

[giblets]

Nope, it was the point where the 'mission' became more important than things like basic human rights. China locks up and tortures dissidents and we all go 'Evil!!'. America now routinely murders innocent Afghan civilians, and we're supposed to go 'Yay, freedom!'?

The US isn't deliberately killing civilians. Which, you know, is kind of the definition of "murder". You're making an absurd comparison when you bring up Chinese torturing of dissidents.

[kentonio]

The US isn't deliberately killing civilians. Which, you know, is kind of the definition of "murder". You're making an absurd comparison when you bring up Chinese torturing of dissidents.

Bull****. When you launch a drone strike on a location where you know there are both targets and civilians, then you don't get to claim that it was accidental when civilians die. If you don't know whether there are civilians there or not, then you shouldn't be launching missiles.

[giblets]

Bull****. When you launch a drone strike on a location where you know there are both targets and civilians, then you don't get to claim that it was accidental when civilians die. If you don't know whether there are civilians there or not, then you shouldn't be launching missiles.

No missiles unless there's a 0% chance of any civilians getting hurt? I guess Al Qaeda will be safe as long as they avoid uninhabited areas.

[kentonio]

No missiles unless there's a 0% chance of any civilians getting hurt? I guess Al Qaeda will be safe as long as they avoid uninhabited areas.

So your previous point was bull****? You're deliberately targeting locations where you know there are civilians?

[Hauldren Collider]

If the civilians were smart they'd quickly realize they shouldn't have anything to do with Taliban commanders. The fact that they let them into their homes implies two possible things:

1. the Taliban commander is forcing them to harbor him
2. they are sympathetic to the Taliban.

#1 means the blame lies with the Taliban.
#2 doesn't mean it's okay to kill them, but it should mollify you a bit, shouldn't it?

[giblets]

So your previous point was bull****? You're deliberately targeting locations where you know there are civilians?

You mean deliberately targeting areas where there's a possibility that there might be civilians? The US doesn't just fire missiles willy nilly.

[molly bloom]

Dresden was a war crime.

Why was Dresden a war crime and not Hamburg ? Or Tokyo, or Hiroshima or Nagasaki ? The death toll has been much exaggerated, first by Goebbels and the Nazi propagandists, then by the East German Communists, and also by Nazi apologists such as David Irving.

If your point is that it wasn't a legitimate military target, then the Yearbook produced by Dresden's own Chamber of Commerce before the war shows that this wasn't the case- far from being simply a Baroque architectural showcase producing nothing but Meissen sheperdesses and teasets, Dresden produced much military hardware. It was also a communications and railway centre.

Churchill may have regreeted it afterwards, but the mass bombing by Allied aircraft was in the same spirit as the bombing of Koln or Hamburg- and firestorms were also a matter of luck, and in WWII there really was no such thing as precision bombing, in or out of daylight.

[DinoDoc]

Does this count as State sponsored terrorism: Tsarnaev family received $100G in benefits?

[Felch]

Does this count as State sponsored terrorism: Tsarnaev family received $100G in benefits?

No.