Overheard on Albie Speer's Marine Officer Selection Course

[BlackCat]

It's one thing on the internet, it's another in person.

Are you trying to claim that Al acts sensibly i real life ? Naw, I had higher thoughts about you

[snoopy369]

I think he's claiming that a drill instructor could intimidate Ben into atheism.

[BlackCat]

That could certainly happen, but doesn't really change my point of Al being able to screw up despite.

[BlackCat]

I'm a bit curious - why do the US army think that they get good soldiers out of Drill Seargents acting tis way ? That is actually a bit WWI trench war style and not what a modern soldier needs.

[Sava]

I'm a bit curious - why do the US army think that they get good soldiers out of Drill Seargents acting tis way ? That is actually a bit WWI trench war style and not what a modern soldier needs.

Not every soldier needs to be good. Even the marines need people to clean toilets.

[BlackCat]

Not every soldier needs to be good. Even the marines need people to clean toilets.

Marines that can't clean toilets are bad marines

[MichaeltheGreat]

I think he's claiming that a drill instructor could intimidate Ben into atheism.

If not, a Sergeant Major or Master Gunny sure could.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Not every soldier needs to be good. Even the marines need people to clean toilets.

Marines are not soldiers. They think that's a point of pride, which is just one reason they're known as Uncle Sam's Misguided Children.

"Private, I'll be back here in one goddamn hour and every surface in that latrine WILL be clean enough to eat off of."

"SIR, I HAVE NO CLEANING SUPPLIES SIR"

"God issued you a tongue, private. It sure as **** was not issued for you to run your sewer, now clean that goddamn latrine!"

"SIR YES SIR"

Sir, uh, sir? How will I know when it is clean enough to eat off of, sir?

"Because you WILL be eating off of it until you stop fouling my Corps with your stench, numbnuts"

Aaah, the good ol' days when DIs and DSs could properly form the ladies into proper Marines and soldiers.

This is what Speer will be dealing with:

[MichaeltheGreat]

I'm a bit curious - why do the US army think that they get good soldiers out of Drill Seargents acting tis way ? That is actually a bit WWI trench war style and not what a modern soldier needs.

Because if you can't handle a Drill Sergeant up in your face and you get all boo-hoo-hooey over it, you're gonna positively **** your pants when some enemy gets up close and personal and wants nothing more than to cut your head or your dick off before he dies. If you start going weak sister in Basic or AIT or any specialty school, you're going to be worse than tits on a bull in combat, because you're not only a danger to yourself, you're a danger to others who depend on you doing your job, whether you've eaten or slept in the last three days or not, whether you're under fire or not, etc.

Issue rifles and carbines are selective fire - there's a time for full auto, and a time to not use full auto. The brain is the same way, especially when **** hits the fan in close combat. There's a time to think, then there's a time thinking will get you and probably your fireteam killed, so you have to shut the brain off and execute according to training.

[BlackCat]

Because if you can't handle a Drill Sergeant up in your face and you get all boo-hoo-hooey over it, you're gonna positively **** your pants when some enemy gets up close and personal and wants nothing more than to cut your head or your dick off before he dies. If you start going weak sister in Basic or AIT or any specialty school, you're going to be worse than tits on a bull in combat, because you're not only a danger to yourself, you're a danger to others who depend on you doing your job, whether you've eaten or slept in the last three days or not, whether you're under fire or not, etc.

Issue rifles and carbines are selective fire - there's a time for full auto, and a time to not use full auto. The brain is the same way, especially when **** hits the fan in close combat. There's a time to think, then there's a time thinking will get you and probably your fireteam killed, so you have to shut the brain off and execute according to training.

Yeah, I know this - it's the "obey orders without question" that worries me. One thing is to automatically secure a position; react sensibly in a combat situation etc. but another thing is to follow stupid orders "because that is your orders". Such as "attack the heavy armed bunker across 200 m of open land" etc. Most danish soldiers would consider such an order stupid and think about alternative ways to take out the target, while US soliders are trained to do the stupid thing.

[Aeson]

I understand your point, but consider this. Would Argentina have invaded the Falklands had they been certain that Britian would carpet bomb Buenos Aires?

... and the way Britain (and other major powers) could get such an ironclad reputation for genocide in response to trivial matters is ...

[Elok]

"Whatever happens, we have got
the Maxim gun, and they have not."

[MichaeltheGreat]

Yeah, I know this - it's the "obey orders without question" that worries me. One thing is to automatically secure a position; react sensibly in a combat situation etc. but another thing is to follow stupid orders "because that is your orders". Such as "attack the heavy armed bunker across 200 m of open land" etc. Most danish soldiers would consider such an order stupid and think about alternative ways to take out the target, while US soliders are trained to do the stupid thing.

If there's alternatives, you take them. If there's not, you have to do it the dirty way. If that bunker is hanging up your ability to move to the achieve an objective, then you have to deal with it by whatever means are available. Most of the time, we have plenty of means available.


One real good way that worked in the Gulf war was M1 Abrams would just drive over them and flatten them with the Iraqis inside. Apparently, enough lived for word to get out, so when an Abrams appeared, those bunkers emptied out fast.

[regexcellent]

How about because murdering innocent people is a complete breach of the Geneva Convention, not to mention a ****ing war crime? You start loosening ROE and the number of innocent people dying goes through the roof. If you don't have to be completely sure that someone is a threat, then are you really going to put your life at risk when you can shoot them and make sure?

Do you have any evidence that innocent people getting killed goes through the roof through slight restrictions on ROE? For instance, we have a rule that on snatch and grab missions we have to use bullhorns to announce that we're coming in. Even police do ****ing no knock warrants, so this is totally insane.

Besides which, in war, some innocent people are going to die and it's only a war "crime" if they get killed deliberately and not as part of an attack on enemy combatants. Also war crimes are just gentleman's agreements anyway and if one side doesn't follow it the other side shouldn't either. The reason we don't kill civilians is so that our enemies don't kill our civilians, but they do it anyway, so why bother. The civilians, those who actually are civilians, should do the right thing and just get the hell out of the way of the fighting, which is what people have done for time immemorial.

Meanwhile our men are getting killed and wounded by following our insanely legalistic rules about when they can or can't do their ****ing jobs.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Actually, civilians have been ****ed from time immemorial. They often don't have many options to get out of the way, or they get used as human shields. etc. Particularly situations like 'Nam and the 'stan, where the *******s basically own the terrain and the night. Who are you gonna listen too, the big American grunts who occupy an area for a short time, or operate sporadically, or the local *******s who will come in the night and cut your entire family's heads off to prove a point?

ROEs from western governments are excessive, from the UN they're ****ing insane, because politicians in those countries, and the press, and the public, have the luxury of not really having close, personal reminders how dirty a business warfighting truly is.