Who are American politicians beholden to? The People? The Constitution?

[Elok]

American politicians are beholden to whoever is currently offering them the largest pile of money. This may hold true for other politicians as well. Thanks for asking.

[Hauldren Collider]

"Some republican somewhere agrees with it" = republican idea, haven't you heard, straybow?

Oh yes, there also has to be a competing idea that is even more liberal. But those two tests are pretty easy to pass.

[kentonio]

ken, it is simply not possible to have a meaningful discussion with someone who lacks the basic of reading comprehension skills. Don't bother. In addition, I believe that Straybow may be legitimately retarded, so any conversation with him is an exercise in futility that will just make you look foolish.

Probably true.

"Some republican somewhere agrees with it" = republican idea, haven't you heard, straybow?

You should know better if you actually read the history of the party you supposedly support. All the things I mentioned were Republican ideas, which the democrats would have opposed a decade or so back. It's a sign of how far right American discourse has moved that previously republican ideas are now considered extremist socialist ideas. Read your history.

[Hauldren Collider]

None of these were ever mainstream republican ideas, kentonio, that's my point and that's straybow's point.

Though I disagree with straybow on TARP. Straybow, recall that frank-dodd occured AFTER Obama was elected. I would agree that Fannie and Freddie are to blame for the subprime mortgages, a decidedly liberal program.

[kentonio]

None of these were ever mainstream republican ideas, kentonio, that's my point and that's straybow's point.

Shall we start with Cap & Trade?

"I don’t understand what Republicans are doing against this. It was their idea. John McCain introduced cap and trade legislation three times."

The Truth-O-Meter Says: True

Democratic Rep. John Boccieri has taken heat from Republicans ever since his 2009 vote for a House energy bill that would establish a "cap and trade" system designed to reduce emission of the greenhouse gasses thought to cause global warming.

The system would impose a government cap on allowable emissions of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gasses. Companies that emit carbon dioxide, like electric utilities, would either have to reduce emissions by using cleaner technology, or purchase credits to allow continued emissions. Either way, the cost likely would be passed along to consumers. Critics of the program have said it would be particularly harmful in Ohio, where a high proportion of electricity is derived from coal-burning power plants that would be most affected by the proposed law.

Groups like the National Republican Congressional Committee have criticized Boccieri for his vote, placing ads in his district that say the system amounts to a nationwide electricity tax that would drive up the nation’s electricity rates.

Boccieri, from Alliance, Ohio, has repeatedly said that he favored the bill because it would create renewable energy jobs in his district that can’t be shipped overseas, and would protect national security by reducing dependence on foreign oil from unstable regions like the Middle East.

During an interview Aug. 18, he stated the "cap and trade" concept was originally a Republican idea, and expressed frustration with the GOP’s current opposition.

"Only in Washington can you propose an idea, introduce legislation and then campaign against it," Boccieri said. "I don’t understand what Republicans are doing against this. It was their idea. John McCain introduced cap and trade legislation three times."

Boccieri is correct that the "cap and trade" concept was pioneered by Republicans.

MIT economics professor Richard Schmalensee and Harvard Kennedy School government professor Robert Stavins noted in July that Ronald Reagan used a "cap-and-trade" system to phase out leaded gasoline and George H.W. Bush established a "cap-and-trade" system that reduced the sulfur dioxide emissions that cause acid rain.

In 2003, McCain, an Arizona Republican, and Sen. Joe Lieberman, then a Democrat from Connecticut, introduced the "Climate Stewardship Act," which would have used a similar cap-and-trade approach to reduce carbon pollution linked to global warming. Versions of the bill were reintroduced in 2005 and 2007.

"The enormous economic costs of damage caused by air pollution and greenhouse gas emissions to the environment and human health are not factored into the price of power produced by fossil-fueled technologies," McCain said in a floor speech to mark the bill’s 2007 introduction. "Yet, it’s a cost that we all bear, too often in terms of ill-health and diminished quality of life."

McCain’s 2007 version was cosponsored by Illinois Democratic Sen. Barack Obama. And both McCain and Obama had cap-and-trade programs in their presidential platforms.

If cap-and-trade legislation was backed by the 2008 presidential contenders from both political parties, why hasn’t it been a shoo-in for implementation?

In short, working out the details has been complicated.

The carbon emissions that cause global warming behave differently in the atmosphere than the sulfur emissions that cause acid rain, making it harder to design a "cap-and-trade" program that will control them. The acid rain program created in the ‘90s "addressed a relatively small number of major sources that could comply simply by using off-the-shelf-technology. By contrast, carbon dioxide is emitted from sources throughout the economy and cannot be sufficiently addressed by technology currently at our disposal," Ohio GOP Sen. George Voinovich told National Journal’s Congress Daily.

Another culprit was legislative maneuvering by the lead sponsors of the House climate bill, Democrats Ed Markey of Massachusetts and Henry Waxman of California. As The New York Times put it, in order to gain passage for the bill "a cornucopia of concessions and exemptions" were granted to "coal companies, utilities, refiners, heavy industry and agribusiness. The original simplicity was lost, replaced by a bazaar in which those with the most muscle got the best deals."

McCain’s staff did not respond to our request to discuss his stance on the House cap-and-trade bill that Boccieri supported. Until late August, McCain faced a tough primary battle against former GOP congressman J. D. Hayworth, who had criticized McCain’s support for cap-and-trade. Energy expert Frank Maisano said McCain has been silent on the issue recently, because of "political pressures he was getting from the right" during that campaign.

We find Boccieri’s statement that John McCain introduced cap and trade legislation three times to be True.

http://www.politifact.com/ohio/state...gop-sen-john-/

[DinoDoc]

You should know better if you actually read the history of the party you supposedly support. All the things I mentioned were Republican ideas, which the democrats would have opposed a decade or so back. It's a sign of how far right American discourse has moved that previously republican ideas are now considered extremist socialist ideas. Read your history.

In their defense, Reagan did successfully kill GOP appetite for mass amnesty with no attempt to secure borders.

[Hauldren Collider]

Your example is John McCain? The man the rest of the Republican senators literally would not eat lunch with during Bush's first term because they thought he wasn't really a republican?

My point stands--you can find an isolated moderate republican that suggests something here or there, but that doesn't make it a truly conservative viewpoint.

[Al B. Sure!]

HC thinks Nelson Rockefeller, Richard Nixon, and Dwight Eisenhower were not real Republicans.

[Hauldren Collider]

Unless they proposed cap and trade before the notion of global warming, no, I'm not, moron.

Also Richard Nixon would certainly never be considered a fiscal conservative today. The ****ing idiot implemented price and wage controls. His conservative credentials came from being vocally anti-communist and pro "law and order".

[Imran Siddiqui]

Hell, Richard Nixon tried to introduce single payer health care. Is not really Republican now?

edit: I do like the shift goalposts from not Republican ideas to "not fiscal conservative", as they have always been considered the same thing (or are even considered such today).

[Hauldren Collider]

Dude, Richard Nixon was economically a ****ing moron. No, it's not a Republican idea, it's Richard Nixon's idea. You are continuing to make the same dumb argument, which is "a republican said x, therefore it's republican".

[Imran Siddiqui]

You have no clue of the history of the post-war Republican Party. Nixon was a diehard Republican from the Nelson Rockefeller, Dwight Eisenhower, George H.W. Bush line.

[Hauldren Collider]

That doesn't mean that every word that came out of his mouth was instant GOP orthodoxy.

[Al B. Sure!]

Dude, Richard Nixon was economically a ****ing moron. No, it's not a Republican idea, it's Richard Nixon's idea. You are continuing to make the same dumb argument, which is "a republican said x, therefore it's republican".

No True Scotsman?

What do you think of the Family Assistance Plan? Thought you would prefer cash over in kind redistribution because of the latter's implicit paternalism?

[Hauldren Collider]

It's not "no true scotsman", idiot. I never said he wasn't a Republican. I'm saying he didn't dictate Republican beliefs, he had his own beliefs, some of which weren't strictly conservative.