Scott Walker's crusade continues

[Felch]

Techically so is a CBA saying a workplace will be a closed shop in a non-RTW state. We have historically, as Americans, accepted that.

And now the laws are changing. We had historically, as Americans, accepted all sorts of limitations on freedom that we have gradually shed. This is no different.

He's swatting away your chaff. That 'Merica is about freedom and stuff and these things aren't freedom.

You're right. It's all about the Democratic party treating blue collars guys as a revenue stream. That's been made perfectly clear.

As pointed out innumerable times before, there is a free rider problem. Employers in open shops will usually pay everyone in the same position the same amount regardless of union or non-union status because it is easier to deal with it that way.

An example, I work for the US government. We have a union that negotiates our salaries/benefits, etc, etc. Those who are not part of the union get the same salaries and benefits as those who are in the union.

Are you saying that there aren't actually any benefits to union membership?

[MichaeltheGreat]

It's pretty childish to pretend like freedom must be absolute. Obviously there are trade offs. We pay taxes and we have police forces that prevent us from murdering people we don't like. These conditions don't mean that we aren't in a free country. A free country is one where, in the balance between social control and liberty, we try to maintain the highest possible degree of liberty. Part of that is saying that people shouldn't be forced to join a union just because the factory where they are employed has one. The social benefit of forcing unionization doesn't balance with the loss of individual liberty.

There's no forced unionization. Their choosing to work at that factory instead of at some other job is a private choice - selecting options in the employment marketplace.

[Felch]

There's no forced unionization. Their choosing to work at that factory instead of at some other job is a private choice - selecting options in the employment marketplace.

We get it. You hate the working class and you blame them for the circumstances under which they live. Anything else you want to add?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Are you saying that there aren't actually any benefits to union membership?

Being able to free ride doesn't mean there's no benefit. It means you're able to obtain the benefit without paying for it.

Public service unions came about because of a system of shakedowns starting with political hack appointees and working its way down in a manner that put the pre-reformation Catholic church to shame. Just like in a lot of third world countries today - you bought a government job, then pay a shakedown every paycheck to maintain it. That abuse is the atmosphere that spawned unions in the public sector, just as different abuses spawned labor unions in the private sector.

[MichaeltheGreat]

We get it. You hate the working class and you blame them for the circumstances under which they live. Anything else you want to add?

Yeah, useless entitled peasants...

[Imran Siddiqui]

And now the laws are changing. We had historically, as Americans, accepted all sorts of limitations on freedom that we have gradually shed. This is no different.

So the whole "America = freedom" crap was a complete canard.

Are you saying that there aren't actually any benefits to union membership?

Not when you can get their benefits by not joining. It'd be like if AAA was required to provide roadside assistance to all drivers in the state. What's the benefit to them then?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

As pointed out innumerable times before, there is a free rider problem. Employers in open shops will usually pay everyone in the same position the same amount regardless of union or non-union status because it is easier to deal with it that way.

For a cost conscious company no way. You pay market rate and allow opt out for those not Union ranks to not be covered by Union rule restrictions. thus you are capable of having much more flexibility to provide overtime and schedule accordingly for those resources no covereed by Union rules. If it so happens that union wages are market rate then what value has hte union really provided. In any event you ensure that the union workplace rules do not apply to non-unionmembers to provide maximum flexibility (a feature often desired by the employee as much as the employer.)

An example, I work for the US government. We have a union that negotiates our salaries/benefits, etc, etc. Those who are not part of the union get the same salaries and benefits as those who are in the union.

Because the government has no accountability and is lazy.

[Felch]

Being able to free ride doesn't mean there's no benefit. It means you're able to obtain the benefit without paying for it.

Public service unions came about because of a system of shakedowns starting with political hack appointees and working its way down in a manner that put the pre-reformation Catholic church to shame. Just like in a lot of third world countries today - you bought a government job, then pay a shakedown every paycheck to maintain it. That abuse is the atmosphere that spawned unions in the public sector, just as different abuses spawned labor unions in the private sector.

My understand is that the civil service system started in the 1870s, which largely ended the era of political appointees. Even into the 1930s, FDR was vocally opposed to public sector unions, and they didn't really take off until the 1960s. So unless you expect me to believe that these shakedowns went on for 90 years after the civil service system began, I think you'd be better off sharing your sources.

[Felch]

Jon Miller

[Felch]

Yeah, useless entitled peasants...

Only thing they're good for is paying for Democratic political activities.

So the whole "America = freedom" crap was a complete canard.

You're right Imran. Because America isn't 100% perfect we should never ever try to make it a better place. Let's just roll back the clock entirely and bring back slavery, because who gives a **** about freedom?

Not when you can get their benefits by not joining. It'd be like if AAA was required to provide roadside assistance to all drivers in the state. What's the benefit to them then?

If a union wants to remain relevant then they need to provide an incentive to join. Some already offer other benefits besides the CBA, such as improved health coverage. AAA manages to attract members without resorting to coercion, why can't a union?

[MichaeltheGreat]

My understand is that the civil service system started in the 1870s, which largely ended the era of political appointees. Even into the 1930s, FDR was vocally opposed to public sector unions, and they didn't really take off until the 1960s. So unless you expect me to believe that these shakedowns went on for 90 years after the civil service system began, I think you'd be better off sharing your sources.

Why don't you study the history of the labor movement? I'm talking about the genesis of the movement to unionize, not when the end result of routine unionization occurred. In many cases, (public service, coal, etc.) it was near a century long process.

[MichaeltheGreat]

If the benefits of a CBA are greater than the dues, then unions have nothing to fear from right to work. Prove to me that I'm wrong. Please.

Why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free?

[Felch]

You're talking about public sector unions, which were for all intents and purposes, insignificant until after WWII. You attributed their rise to patronage, which ended generations earlier. Point me to a link, and I'll read it, but don't make strange claims and then insist that it's my job to find evidence for them.

[Felch]

Why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free?

If milk is being given away for free, then why sell cows? Why don't unions adapt to changing circumstances? Why don't they try to find novel ways of bringing in members?

[MrFun]

Are you saying that there aren't actually any benefits to union membership?

That's not the argument.

The point is that with "right to work" laws, free riders can enjoy the benefits from unions' collective bargaining efforts without having to pay any dues. That's just not right.

What if I want to enjoy benefits of some type of organization or club, but I don't want to join nor pay any membership dues? You're fine with this type of free loading?