Read it and weep future billionaires of america

[kentonio]

Except that with the European taxation system we still have absolutely massive use of non-essential road use. To stop that you'd need to raise prices significantly higher than they already are, which would have absolutely crippling effects.

[Jaguar]

Europeans observably drive much smaller, more gas-efficient cars than we do. It would be good for the world if the US took on European policies in this particular area. Maybe the Europeans should be doing even more, or maybe they shouldn't - that's up to an environmental science PhD to decide, not me.

But the crippling effects you're imagining on "essential" transportation just aren't there. Do the math. 200-300 gallons to get to the East Coast from Nebraska. 80,000 lbs per load. Freight networks have always been gas-efficient.

[kentonio]

So even with the European levels of taxation you don't think that a few cents a pound is going to take an impact on goods prices, or are you arguing that those kind of price increases are manageable?

[Jaguar]

A few cents a pound is manageable, and obviously the proceeds from the carbon tax would help us elsewhere in our budget. You live in a place where gas costs $9/gallon sometimes. Are you starving?

[kentonio]

We have a strong welfare system to ensure that the poorest members of society generally don't. I'm curious about how easy your poorest would find an across the board increase in food prices.

[Jaguar]

A price increase of a couple of cents per pound? Are you serious?

[kentonio]

Very.

[Jaguar]

Still not sure if serious. Like, people live on about 3 pounds of food per day. 1000 pounds per year. That 18-wheeler from Nebraska could carry someone's food for their entire lifetime. All for only 200 or 300 gallons of gas. A gallon every three months.

Again, are you serious? The poor in America can afford that. The poor in Botswana or Niger could probably afford that too.

[kentonio]

Still not sure if serious. Like, people live on about 3 pounds of food per day. 1000 pounds per year. That 18-wheeler from Nebraska could carry someone's food for their entire lifetime. All for only 200 or 300 gallons of gas. A gallon every three months.

Again, are you serious? The poor in America can afford that. The poor in Botswana or Niger could probably afford that too.

Except that people don't buy x pound of generic food, they buy a range of different products, all of which need to be transported and all of which will need to raise in price if they become more expensive to transport. Those few cents soon start to add up when it's a few cents on everything you buy, and when you have huge numbers of people living right on the breadline that kind of price rise can be catastrophic.

[Kuciwalker]

So different types of food suddenly weigh a lot more as soon as you load them on a truck together?

[kentonio]

So different types of food suddenly weigh a lot more as soon as you load them on a truck together?

What? If you charge more to transport goods then those goods are going to be increased in price to offset that higher transport cost. If the increase equates to 0.2c per item, do you really thing the business is going to swallow that increase, or are they more likely to raise the cost by 1c?

[Kuciwalker]

No one suggested the price would be "2 cents per item". The back-of-the-envelope calculation was "1-2 cents per pound". And even though shoppers don't buy most of their groceries by the pound, the actual grocery stores really do try to ship large quantities of goods efficiently. It's not like the manager suddenly notices they are low on milk and calls a cabbie to drive him to the local farm.

[kentonio]

Huh? If someone is calculating their sale cost based on the cost of the item + transportation and other overheads and suddenly the cost of transportation rises, how else are they going to cover that increased cost other than by raising the price of their items? They can either reduce quantity or raise prices.

[Jaguar]

Right. They'll raise prices by a couple of cents per pound.

[Kuciwalker]

The price of transportation rises (to a first approximation) per unit weight. i.e. lighter items would see smaller price increases. i.e. we can still do the "add up the total weight of the food someone buys in a year" and get a solid order-of-magnitude estimate of how much the gas tax would cost that person in increased food prices.