The Rapture?

[Imran Siddiqui]

I'm not sure what Protestants you are refering to. Heresy? I've never even heard a protestant ever use that word except when talking about the history of the catholic church.

Mainline Protestants - Lutherans, Presbyterians (the American Presbyterians even called it a "dangerous heresy"), Anglicans, Methodists.

Jesus said that wickedness comes from the HEART of men. Paul said, live according to the spirit, not the flesh. The flesh is what harbors the sinful nature, which Paul talked about. He said that he does what he doesn't want to do, because of his flesh. Clearly they are opposed to each other, not tied together.

What is this about Genesis 2?

Man was created by flesh and spirit (the clay and breath of God). Man does not exist apart from either of the two. To deny one is to deny the goodness of Creation. Also Jesus had flesh Himself.

Furthermore in the Greek 'flesh' in that passage by Paul is better translated as 'self-interested nature'.

[kentonio]

If I knew how to get $1 million would I be proud for sharing the information with you?

What makes you so confident that you know a failproof way to be saved? How is that not pride?

[Kidlicious]

Mainline Protestants - Lutherans, Presbyterians (the American Presbyterians even called it a "dangerous heresy"), Anglicans, Methodists.

Speaking as a methodist, I can believe whatever I dang well please. That's my business. Protestants generally believe that christians have a personal relationship with God and it's their responsibility to believe correctly. I've never heard of the church calling believers heretics. Protestant churches do not have that kind of authority. Now if you are doing something immoral they can kick you out of the church, but I've never seen it and I doubt it ever happens.

We have a book called the Book of Discipline which is merely a guideline for believers. It says right in the book that people's beliefs are personal.

Man was created by flesh and spirit (the clay and breath of God).

Yes. Although I don't believe in the literal creation as told. If you do you might be led to believe that the flesh is good, but of course it's not.

Man does not exist apart from either of the two.

So you believe that we keep our bodies forever?

To deny one is to deny the goodness of Creation.

To deny the flesh is to deny the goodness of Creation? So if my flesh tells me to kill someone I should do it so that I don't deny the goodness of creation?

Also Jesus had flesh Himself.

Obviously Jesus is quite different from the rest of us, although he aquired flesh so that we would believe his message.

Furthermore in the Greek 'flesh' in that passage by Paul is better translated as 'self-interested nature'.

Having read Pauls letters, I really, really don't believe that. Convince me.

[Lorizael]

If I knew how to get $1 million would I be proud for sharing the information with you?

Except you haven't gotten your million dollars (heaven) yet. Is Christianity a pyramid scheme?

[Kidlicious]

What makes you so confident that you know a failproof way to be saved? How is that not pride?

Good night! If I'm confident that I know what 2 + 2 is, does that make me proud?

[Kidlicious]

Except you haven't gotten your million dollars (heaven) yet. Is Christianity a pyramid scheme?

As Jesus said, the harvest is now.

[kentonio]

Good night! If I'm confident that I know what 2 + 2 is, does that make me proud?

So you are saying you know the will of god.

[Elok]

a lot of very stupid/evil/obnoxious people believe in the Rapture, e.g. "I can't wait for the Rapture to occur so that I can sit up in Heaven and watch you and all the other sinners suffer."

This. Essentially, it's like the geek in school who gets shoved in the toilet every day but tolerates it by thinking about how one day he'll be rich and laugh at the dumb jocks pushing brooms. Except with more Jesus and fire. Also, the whole thing is based on very tenuous exegesis from two short passages and a single word from a third. And IIRC nobody at all believed it until a fellow named Darby thought it up in the 1800s or so.

[Elok]

So you are saying you know the will of god.

Here's a sort of koan for you: Kid is bonkers, but he is wiser than you, for he is not silly enough to spend time arguing with Kid.

[Kidlicious]

So you are saying you know the will of god.

I take Him at His word.

[Kidlicious]

This. Essentially, it's like the geek in school who gets shoved in the toilet every day but tolerates it by thinking about how one day he'll be rich and laugh at the dumb jocks pushing brooms. Except with more Jesus and fire. Also, the whole thing is based on very tenuous exegesis from two short passages and a single word from a third. And IIRC nobody at all believed it until a fellow named Darby thought it up in the 1800s or so.

I am dismayed by the way you talk about christians, the way you treat them. "They will know you are my disciples if you love one another."

[kentonio]

Here's a sort of koan for you: Kid is bonkers, but he is wiser than you, for he is not silly enough to spend time arguing with Kid.

Good point.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Speaking as a methodist, I can believe whatever I dang well please. That's my business. Protestants generally believe that christians have a personal relationship with God and it's their responsibility to believe correctly. I've never heard of the church calling believers heretics. Protestant churches do not have that kind of authority. Now if you are doing something immoral they can kick you out of the church, but I've never seen it and I doubt it ever happens.

We have a book called the Book of Discipline which is merely a guideline for believers. It says right in the book that people's beliefs are personal.

So, it's ok for Methodists to believe that Christ wasn't God, but merely some rabbi? Can they believe there is no God?

I'm sure some do believe that, but is that doctrine?

Yes. Although I don't believe in the literal creation as told. If you do you might be led to believe that the flesh is good, but of course it's not.

So, you don't believe the Creation story holds some truth? At all? Obviously it makes the case (which Jews still believe) that the body and spirit are fused into one and cannot be separated out. If you want to believe in Greek views of the debasement of human body, be my guest, but that's not Scripture.

So you believe that we keep our bodies forever?

What does resurrection of the body mean to you? Our bodies and spirits are transformed - as Christ's was when he rose on Easter. He is the first fruits after all.

To deny the flesh is to deny the goodness of Creation? So if my flesh tells me to kill someone I should do it so that I don't deny the goodness of creation?

As Paul would say, Certainly not! Our wills may lead us to wrong views, but doesn't mean our Creation is flawed. Do you think God messed up when He made us?

Obviously Jesus is quite different from the rest of us, although he aquired flesh so that we would believe his message.

Most definitely not. Jesus became man so that He could free us from the chains of sin. If Jesus was flesh then how could flesh be bad or sinful (as it is said, Jesus never sinned).

Having read Pauls letters, I really, really don't believe that. Convince me.

http://www.abu.nb.ca/courses/pauline/human.htm

3.8.4. Most importantly flesh in Paul's writings can mean the human being as a willing instrument of sin; it becomes synonymous with the sinful nature. As such, it denotes a function or aspect of a human being rather than a substantial entity, a component part.

It continues for a while after that and there is a conclusion part.

4.2. In Paul’s view, the human being is a unity of body and spirit; it is wrong to suggest that Paul sees the body as incidental to what a human being is, dispensable and even undesirable. Paul's interest in the resurrection, the redemption of the body, expressed in various places in his letters is an obvious indication that he did not see the body as incidental to what it means to be a human being. There are two passages in particular where Paul expresses the view that to have a body is a part of what it means to be human. First, in 2 Cor 5:4, Paul writes about how unsettling the loss of the body is the one who loses it in death: he speaks of not wanting to have the old body stripped off, but to have a heavenly body. Second, in Phil 3:21, Paul says that God will transform our bodies (not discard them as irrelevant), and in Rom 8:23 he speaks of the redemption of the body.

4.4. The human being as a unity composed of two component parts, a body and a spirit (inner man) has several functions/aspects. First, functionally the human being has a heart, which denotes his or her cognitional/volitional capacity; it is the "center" of the human being. Second, the human being has a mind, which denotes the human being in his or her intellectual functioning. Third, the human being has a conscience, which is the faculty that accuses and approves of his or her moral choices. Finally, the human being is flesh, is in flesh or has flesh, which denotes the sinful nature, the human being without the Spirit of God. (In this Paul has parallels to Second-Temple sources.)

(though I strongly fear that there is no convincing you here and you shall grasp at straws to show otherwise)

[Imran Siddiqui]

I am dismayed by the way you talk about christians, the way you treat them. "They will know you are my disciples if you love one another."

IIRC, you have attempted to insult your fellow Christians with far harsher words.

[Kidlicious]

IIRC, you have attempted to insult your fellow Christians with far harsher words.

Why are you encouraging him to sin?