News about the female body

[Asher]

I can't see how Asher can be against circumcision of babies but be in favor of abortion...

JM

Babies are children, fetuses are not. It's easy.

[Elok]

Do we have an individual right to own firearms? Sensible people agree that this is open to individual interpretation, so they leave it up to each individual to decide whether or not s/he is allowed to own a pistol, rifle, or belt-fed machine gun. There's no need to legislate one group's definition when both are free to follow their own conscience.

[Asher]

How are animals and plants human life?

They are life. Which was the question...

Is 'it' human? Science has an answer to that, is 'it' a living organism? Science has an answer to that.

Is 'it' showing all the characteristics of a human... medical science has an answer to that too.

All of these scientific answers point to late stage abortion being murder.

I don't recall using the phrase "late stage abortion" at all. In fact I've personally only mentioned first trimester, haven't I?

[Asher]

Do we have an individual right to own firearms? Sensible people agree that this is open to individual interpretation, so they leave it up to each individual to decide whether or not s/he is allowed to own a pistol, rifle, or belt-fed machine gun. There's no need to legislate one group's definition when both are free to follow their own conscience.

Yes, being able to own an assault rifle is directly comparable to carrying to term a child of rape. Well done.

[Asher]

More seriously, gun control exists because of an issue of public safety.

What a woman does to her own body is her concern, not yours.

The difference is the freedom of an individual to affect themselves and the freedom of an individual to murder others. Your argument is that it's the same because a woman isn't just affecting herself, she's murdering her baby. I don't agree. There is no consensus.

You are most welcome to your opinion, you may indoctrinate your children likewise, and you may force your daughter (until she's of age) to respect your wishes. Enjoy your freedom to do that.

[Jon Miller]

I was pointing out how stupid your comment was.

Canada has legal 3rd trimester abortions (although I note that recently Quebec had no doctors who would perform one), as such when you defend abortion you defend late stage abortion.

If Canada only allowed first trimester abortion, I would not argue against your defense of abortion.

JM

[Elok]

Why do I care what your government has currently done?

Canada's hasn't. You do realize that the US isn't the only country in the world?

Yes, I do. Wiki says Canada has no restrictions on abortion whatever, and this is the result of some sort of legal vacuum on the issue after old laws got struck down. In other words, a situation not too terribly different from our own, so your objection appears moot. As I was saying: there is no totally neutral position on the issue. Either your government allows abortion to some extent--in which case it is at least partially privileging one POV--or it bans it almost entirely, favoring the other. Leaving it up to the individual is not being impartial, but a clear victory for the pro-choice. It's a tribute to your troll-fu that I'm even typing something this obvious.

[Asher]

I was pointing out how stupid your comment was.

Canada has legal 3rd trimester abortions (although I note that recently Quebec had no doctors who would perform one), as such when you defend abortion you defend late stage abortion.

The logic of this makes my head hurt. I didn't proclaim Canada's laws and models to be perfect, nor did I indicate my support for them. I've not once mentioned late stage abortion, and I've specifically mentioned first trimester abortions.

It's not my comment that's stupid.

[Asher]

Yes, I am. Wiki says Canada has no restrictions on abortion whatever, and this is the result of some sort of legal vacuum on the issue after old laws got struck down. In other words, a situation not too terribly different from our own, so your objection appears moot. As I was saying: there is no totally neutral position on the issue. Either your government allows abortion to some extent--in which case it is at least partially privileging one POV--or it bans it almost entirely, favoring the other. Leaving it up to the individual is not being impartial, but a clear victory for the pro-choice. It's a tribute to your troll-fu that I'm even typing something this obvious.

Let's be clear.

There are three positions:

Pro-Abortion: YOU SHOULD ABORT YOUR BABIES!
Pro-Choice: A woman may choose
Pro-Life: YOU WILL LOVE YOUR RAPEBABY OR THE STATE WILL RAISE IT. NEVER ANY ABORTIONS!

There are times in my life, mostly when speaking with the American Religious Right, that I'm firmly in the first category.

Leaving the choice up to the individual, and the lack of a law regulating, isn't a "Victory" for pro choice. It'd a victory for freedom and a defeat for people who believe the government has the right to regulate what you do with your body.

[Jon Miller]

The difference is the freedom of an individual to affect themselves and the freedom of an individual to murder others. Your argument is that it's the same because a woman isn't just affecting herself, she's murdering her baby. I don't agree. There is no consensus.

There is no consensus because it is heavily in some people's interest to be able to murder their babies.

I am not claiming that they think of it as murder. People are very good at lying to themselves (especially when they have a lot of people supporting them in that lie).

It is similar to the continuation of slavery being heavily in some people's interest and no consensus there. Also there, people were good at lying to themselves and many said it was good for the negros and what they needed.

JM

[Jon Miller]

The logic of this makes my head hurt. I didn't proclaim Canada's laws and models to be perfect, nor did I indicate my support for them. I've not once mentioned late stage abortion, and I've specifically mentioned first trimester abortions.

It's not my comment that's stupid.

Your life comment was stupid. You ignored the obvious inference.

If you truly were in favor of only 1st trimester abortions you would be attacking abortion instead of defending it because 3rd trimester abortions are legal in Canada.

I mean, you attack circumcision and that isn't even killing babies!

JM

[Asher]

There is no consensus because it is heavily in some people's interest to be able to murder their babies.

I am not claiming that they think of it as murder. People are very good at lying to themselves (especially when they have a lot of people supporting them in that lie).

It is similar to the continuation of slavery being heavily in some people's interest and no consensus there. Also there, people were good at lying to themselves and many said it was good for the negros and what they needed.

JM

This is surprisingly arrogant, Jon. You're incapable of viewing this issue from any other angle other than "fetus = child; abortion = murder" and you go so far as to insult the mothers who have agonized over the choice by saying that they lied to themselves.

I'm a neutral third party on the issue. I will never get an abortion myself. I will never have my partner in the position of getting an abortion. It is not in my interest either way whether an abortion happens.

So am I lying to myself now, too? Or is it possible we have different opinions on when human life becomes meaningful?

[Jon Miller]

It is scientific fact Asher.

Abortion is an important 'freedom' for your cultural allies, so no, you are not a disinterested third party.

And yes, mother's who agonize over the choice are going to be some of the best at lying to themselves. Those who don't agonize are more likely to not lie to themselves and say 'it was killing a baby, so?'.

JM

[Asher]

Your life comment was stupid. You ignored the obvious inference.

I mean, you attack circumcision and that isn't even killing babies!

JM

To be clear, I'm completely against killing babies.

But we're not talking about killing babies here, we're talking about first trimester abortions.

If you truly were in favor of only 1st trimester abortions you would be attacking abortion instead of defending it because 3rd trimester abortions are legal in Canada.

This is, quite honestly, Ben Kenobi-esque in its level of retardness.

[Asher]

It is scientific fact Asher.

JM

It most certainly is not. You're lying to yourself if you think otherwise.

Humanity is not a scientific concept. Life is, to be sure.

But sperm is life, too.