News about the female body

[Asher]

You know, if you want to engage in masturbatory activities, the internet also features a great abundance and variety of pornography...

I'm sure HC has moral objections to pornography as well, and thus wishes to ban it.

[Japher]

Asher:

If a woman chooses to abort a child does she not force her belief on to that child? Is that not quite wrong as well?
AND
All because a solution produces additional issues does not make it the wrong solution. By your same reasoning we shouldn't have gun control because of the rise of sword violence! (which, by the way, I support).

I favor less government, but I am also pro-"do no harm". The incepted child has a right to thrive, and this pre-empts the "responsible adults" freedom of choice. In fact, in many instances, it was the freedom of choice that led to the need for the abortion. So, in that regard, we can argue that it is "freedom of choice" that is problem, when in fact we know it is the actual choice made, and not the freedoms that allow it, that we should be arguing.

[Asher]

Asher:

If a woman chooses to abort a child does she not force her belief on to that child? Is that not quite wrong as well?

You can't abort a child, because a child is born.

All because a solution produces additional issues does not make it the wrong solution. By your same reasoning we shouldn't have gun control because of the rise of sword violence! (which, by the way, I support).

That's not the because. It's additional rationale. The "because" is it's her body, she has the right to do as she wants with it.

I favor less government, but I am also pro-"do no harm". The incepted child has a right to thrive, and this pre-empts the "responsible adults" freedom of choice.

What is the "bottom line" difference between a child that is never conceived and a child who is aborted in its first trimester?

The bottom line is a child is not born. If you choose to call a week old fetus a child, that's your own beliefs that should remain your own -- not to be legislated on others.

What we're getting down to is a difference in religious or spirituality.

[Jon Miller]

I don't see what it has to do with religion, other than many religions say it is wrong to commit murder.

JM
(Note that I am in favor of a conservative (in the scientific sense) scientific definition of human, which would probably just ban abortions after the first trimester.)

[Asher]

I don't see what it has to do with religion, other than many religions say it is wrong to commit murder.

You honestly do not see what the definition of human life has to do with religion or spirituality?

[Jon Miller]

Excluding Catholics.

I don't think it has anything (Directly) to do with my or HC's opposition to abortion.

JM

[Asher]

I think Judeo-Christian ethics have everything to do with it.

[Japher]

I think the real question is when is it considered "alive", at birth? What is life?
And then you ask when is it considered failure to thrive, child abuse, and murder?
Personally, I think a reasonible arguement can be made (not by me mind you) that life begins at conception, and that life is defined as XYZ... whatever that is. And thus, abortion would be murder. This would have nothing to do with my belief, but about court agreed upon definition of life.
IMO, that definition would have to corrolate with whether taking someone of life support without their permission is illegal or not.

[Asher]

I think the real question is when is it considered "alive", at birth? What is life?

And now we've arrived at the spirituality portion of the debate, where sensible people agree this is open to interpretation and is determined by one's own belief system and thus shouldn't be legislated according to one group's definition.

I do not consider the cells after conception to be a child. Why is your belief more important than mine?

[Japher]

science has a definition of life, should we use that?

[Asher]

science has a definition of life, should we use that?

Congratulations, you've just outlawed the consumption of animals and plant life if you do that.

[Jon Miller]

How are animals and plants human life?

Is 'it' human? Science has an answer to that, is 'it' a living organism? Science has an answer to that.

Is 'it' showing all the characteristics of a human... medical science has an answer to that too.

All of these scientific answers point to late stage abortion being murder.

It is an entirely unreasonable exception which is no different than if we arbitrarily define those with black skin as not being human or any other arbitrary group.

JM

[Elok]

And now we've arrived at the spirituality portion of the debate, where sensible people agree this is open to interpretation and is determined by one's own belief system and thus shouldn't be legislated according to one group's definition.

It currently IS legislated according to one group's definition--namely, the pro-choice one. The government (or, at least, some portion thereof) has ruled firmly on one side of the issue, and presenting that as open-minded or inclusive is patently ridiculous.

[Jon Miller]

I can't see how Asher can be against circumcision of babies but be in favor of abortion...

JM

[Asher]

It currently IS legislated according to one group's definition--namely, the pro-choice one. The government (or, at least, some portion thereof) has ruled firmly on one side of the issue, and presenting that as open-minded or inclusive is patently ridiculous.

Why do I care what your government has currently done?

Canada's hasn't. You do realize that the US isn't the only country in the world?