Mitt Romney Would Pay 0.82 Percent in Taxes Under Paul Ryan's Plan

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

No America is not ALL about money it also has had a long standing cultural component that wants to reward hard work, pulls for underdogs, rewards those engaging in philanthropy, believes in good sportmanship, thinks families and parents are a good thing etc. etc. All those outdated fuddy duddy ideals that play into whether people are subjectively considered a good ethical person.

As for going to Cuba, why would I move to an even more envious societal culture that has supplanted many of the above ideals with a "state will cover it" mentality?

[Lorizael]

Capitalist. You do not need to add -ic to adjectives to make them adjectives.

You're absolutely right. Thanks.

No America is not ALL about money it also has had along standing cultural component that wants to reward hard work, pulls for underdogs, rewards those engaging in philanthropy, believes in good sportmanship, thinks families and parents are a good thing etc. etc. All those outdated fuddy duddy ideals that play into whether people are subjectively considered a good ethical person.

As for going to Cuba, why would I move to an even more envious societal culture that has supplanted many of the above ideals with a "state will cover it" mentality?

We reward hard work with money, pull for underdogs by giving them money when they succeed, reward philanthropists with money (tax breaks), reward those who are NOT good sports with money (tax loopholes), and support families and parents with money (tax breaks). If there's something in America we value other than money, we might want to reward it with something other than money.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Cynicism is another symptom of the hopelessness that envy breeds.

[Lorizael]

Then tax payrolls or consumption to fund them. (Incidentally, this is largely what we already do.)

Economically speaking, what is the difference between payroll tax and income tax? (I'm asking honestly; I have no idea.)

[Lorizael]

Cynicism is another symptom of the hopelessness that envy breeds.

I don't envy the rich. I don't feel hopeless. And my cynicism comes from my father.

[kentonio]

pulls for underdogs

Since when?

[snoopy369]

Economically speaking, what is the difference between payroll tax and income tax? (I'm asking honestly; I have no idea.)

Companies pay payroll taxes, individuals pay income taxes. Both have different motives, so the taxes have different effects. They would have the same if you assumed companies would raise salaries to compensate for higher income taxes or lower payroll taxes, but they don't (at least not sufficiently immediately).

[Lorizael]

Cynicism is another symptom of the hopelessness that envy breeds.

A better response is this: Envy is the result of a society in which the rich are so much more wealthy than the poor. If you think envy, hopelessness, and cynicism are problems, then you have to attack the root of the problem: wealth inequality. (I don't necessarily think this is a good idea. But it's the end result of your reasoning.)

[Lorizael]

Companies pay payroll taxes, individuals pay income taxes.

I get that. But wouldn't higher payroll taxes just be pushed onto employees as lower wages?

[snoopy369]

I get that. But wouldn't higher payroll taxes just be pushed onto employees as lower wages?

No. They likely would be pushed onto employees with job cuts. It's fairly hard to lower someone's salary, and while you might have reduced raises, those are neither immediate nor necessarily linked. There's a sufficient separation for them to have significantly different effects.

[Jaguar]

No. They likely would be pushed onto employees with job cuts. It's fairly hard to lower someone's salary, and while you might have reduced raises, those are neither immediate nor necessarily linked. There's a sufficient separation for them to have significantly different effects.

Snoopy described the short-term, Lori described the long-term. Any dramatic tax overhaul needs to be phased in gradually or else wonky effects like the one snoopy describes will happen. Over the long term, though, all the demand-side sticky-wages effects don't matter.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

A better response is this: Envy is the result of a society in which the rich are so much more wealthy than the poor. If you think envy, hopelessness, and cynicism are problems, then you have to attack the root of the problem: wealth inequality. (I don't necessarily think this is a good idea. But it's the end result of your reasoning.)

No you have to restore America to a land that is recognized as a land of opportunity and social mobility. That unfortunately is not the case today. Wealth inequality was always a minor cutural driver as by and large people rejected that concept in favor of the opportunity to make it themselves and put their next generation in a position to have it better than they did. That is as long as they thought they had a legit chance to do so if they put in the work and had the persistence.

[Jon Miller]

Not really. You likely would pay less for less.

I still would need the investments, and so it would end up costing me more for a worse result.

JM

[Lorizael]

Snoopy described the short-term, Lori described the long-term. Any dramatic tax overhaul needs to be phased in gradually or else wonky effects like the one snoopy describes will happen. Over the long term, though, all the demand-side sticky-wages effects don't matter.

So, I thought you were arguing earlier that payroll taxes are somehow different from (and better than) income taxes. In the long run, how is that the case?

No you have to restore America to a land that is recognized as a land of opportunity and social mobility. That unfortunately is not the case today.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I think it's more or less inevitable that a culture that idolizes the rich will also envy the rich. If we were to become a land of opportunity again, it would just reset the envy counter.

[Jaguar]

So, I thought you were arguing earlier that payroll taxes are somehow different from (and better than) income taxes. In the long run, how is that the case?

A payroll tax is a tax on wage income. It's a subset of income taxes. A payroll tax can be paid either by employer or by employee, but in the medium-long run, it doesn't matter who pays; the worker's take-home pay is the same.