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**Kuciwalker** · July 15, 2012, 12:58

Originally posted by Oncle Boris View Post

Students are poor.

No they aren't.

**Kuciwalker** · July 15, 2012, 13:00

Originally posted by kentonio View Post

How exactly students leaving university in debt is a good thing for poor people, I have no idea. Are you sure you've thought this through?

It means those poor people haven't had their tax money stolen and given to rich people.

**Kuciwalker** · July 15, 2012, 13:01

Originally posted by Jon Miller View Post

The ones with student loans are less likely to be so, however.

Only if it was a poor idea for them to attend college in the first place.

If someone is going to find that the debt is extremely burdensome after they graduate, we don't want him going to college.

**kentonio** · July 15, 2012, 13:04

Originally posted by Kuciwalker View Post

It means those poor people haven't had their tax money stolen and given to rich people.

Which would only make sense in a system that wasn't means tested.

**Dauphin** · July 15, 2012, 13:08

Instead, the Scots get it all free, it being stolen from the English.

**Jon Miller** · July 15, 2012, 13:08

Originally posted by Kuciwalker View Post

Only if it was a poor idea for them to attend college in the first place.

If someone is going to find that the debt is extremely burdensome after they graduate, we don't want him going to college.

Debt can be very burdensome, even if you expect more per year than what you took out in loans.

You don't know what life will send your way.

Make a simple simulation with a few shocks (new car, medical bill, job loss due to recession/etc) and see that even a student loan similar expected yearly income can be incredibly burdensome.

JM

**Kuciwalker** · July 15, 2012, 13:10

Originally posted by kentonio View Post

Which would only make sense in a system that wasn't means tested.

The students simply by virtue of being smart enough to get into university are already well above average in wealth. The system is "means-tested" on your parents' wealth, not your own.

**kentonio** · July 15, 2012, 13:12

Originally posted by Kuciwalker View Post

The students simply by virtue of being smart enough to get into university are already well above average in wealth. The system is "means-tested" on your parents' wealth, not your own.

Are you talking about potential future wealth?

**Kuciwalker** · July 15, 2012, 13:14

Originally posted by Jon Miller View Post

Debt can be very burdensome, even if you expect more per year than what you took out in loans.

You don't know what life will send your way.

Make a simple simulation with a few shocks (new car, medical bill, job loss due to recession/etc) and see that even a student loan similar expected yearly income can be incredibly burdensome.

People with out college degrees find those difficult to deal with too, Jon

Let me put it this way: if there were no people who found that their college education wasn't providing them much more value than what they paid for it, would you think that was a good thing?

**Dauphin** · July 15, 2012, 13:14

Originally posted by Jon Miller View Post

Debt can be very burdensome, even if you expect more per year than what you took out in loans.

You don't know what life will send your way.

Make a simple simulation with a few shocks (new car, medical bill, job loss due to recession/etc) and see that even a student loan similar expected yearly income can be incredibly burdensome.

JM

As I understand it, UK student loans have repayment schedule based on earnings - so it is effectively an additional tax rate until the loan is repaid.

I don't know what the percentage is as I've never had a UK student loan, and I don't know if sudden additional costs would cause a problem (as compared to no student loan), but losing a job would not appear to be a problem insofar as repayment of that particular loan is concerned.

**Kuciwalker** · July 15, 2012, 13:15

Originally posted by kentonio View Post

Are you talking about potential future wealth?

There's no such thing as "potential future wealth". Wealth itself is just potential future income; just like the immense human capital possessed by someone who can get into college.

**Kuciwalker** · July 15, 2012, 13:18

As evidence for the "human capital really is wealth" framing, observe that in the US lenders advance loans that are effectively collateralized by it.

**kentonio** · July 15, 2012, 13:20

Originally posted by Kuciwalker View Post

There's no such thing as "potential future wealth". Wealth itself is just potential future income; just like the immense human capital possessed by someone who can get into college.

Oh please, the reason for the old UK system was because it was realized that it is considerably easier for children with rich parents to get to university, regardless of intellect or talent. The parents wealth not only tends to lead to a much higher quality education, but when it comes to things like day to day living/travel/opportunities while at university they are much easier to manage for the rich. This creates a much heavier burder on the poor to receive the same chances, which on this side of the Atlantic is something we tend to frown on.

**Jon Miller** · July 15, 2012, 13:21

Originally posted by Kuciwalker View Post

The students simply by virtue of being smart enough to get into university are already well above average in wealth. The system is "means-tested" on your parents' wealth, not your own.

Those students will already do well.

The government is concerned about the human capital which is possibly available. This is not the wealthy (who are already optimizing themselves)

An example of the failures of private education:

The Failings of Chile’s Education System: Institutionalized Inequality and a Preference for the Affluent

http://www.coha.org/the-failings-of-chile%E2%80%99s-education-system-institutionalized-inequality-and-a-preference-for-the-affluent/

While the structure of Chile’s elementary and secondary education has changed considerably since the demise of the Pinochet dictatorship, the Chilean system is currently undergoing intense scrutiny due to the recent mass student protests against President Bachelet’s proposed 2006 education policy, Ley General de Educación (LGE). This General Education bill promises to eliminate discriminatory admissions policies at Chile’s primary, secondary, and tertiary education levels, and establishes a National Education Council to further advance school autonomy away from state control. However, teachers and students continue to oppose the LGE for its failure to reform the government’s basic financial strategy in order to abet a healthier and more equitable educational system.
What President Bachelet Hoped to Accomplish Chilean education offers inherently unequal opportunities for students from low-income families, who consistently experience sub-standard educational achievements as a result of an ongoing bias in favor of privatization measures. The government’s school voucher program has not only exacerbated the socioeconomic divide between public and private institutions, but has also ensured that wealthier students have access to quality education, which guarantees their advancement to universities and a choice of careers. Although President Bachelet’s educational reform is intended to alleviate certain discriminatory practices that prevent low-income students from entering institutions of higher learning, the continuation of Chile’s market-based strategy for school financing will almost certainly guarantee existing inequalities.
For Full Article Click Here
This analysis was prepared by COHA Research Associate Andrea Arango.

An Embattled Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner: Can She Restore Her Popularity and Aid in Argentina's Recovery?
To the outrage of President Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, Vice President Julio Cobos cast the decisive vote on July 17 against her plan to increase the export tax on grains being shipped abroad, effectively putting a full stop to a very tense domestic situation. As a result, Argentina today is considerably more tranquil now that the hostile demonstrations and strikes by Argentine farmers, which led to chaos in the domestic and overseas food markets, have ended. The crisis averted, average Argentines can now breathe a sigh of relief knowing that the nation’s most unsettling issue, a crushing annual inflation rate of almost 30 percent, can be addressed. During last year’s electoral campaign, Cristina was consistently 20 to 30 percentage points ahead of the other presidential candidates in the polls. Her victory was expected as her husband, Nestor Kirchner, had just ended his own presidential term with high popularity ratings, and the country looked forward to the continuity of his economic success paired with Cristina’s less heavy-handed style of governance. But President Fernández’s unwillingness to reduce the agricultural export tax and her obdurate approach to the dispute - perceived by many to be haughty and authoritarian - severely damaged her popularity. Even some of her most fervent supporters became disappointed by her uncompromising attitude. In addition, many complain that Nestor holds too much sway over Cristina and has had a negative influence on her dealings with the rural sector.
For Full Article Click Here
This analysis was prepared by COHA Research Associate Emily Dunn.

Countries with free education serve their poorer members much better (and, from a rational perspective, make more efficient use of their human capital) than those with market solutions (see Sweden/etc).

JM

**kentonio** · July 15, 2012, 13:21

Originally posted by Kuciwalker View Post

As evidence for the "human capital really is wealth" framing, observe that in the US lenders advance loans that are effectively collateralized by it.

We have student loans here too, but it also acts as a deterrent to the poorer kids because if you've come from a world where £20,000 is a fortune, the idea of coming out of university owing that kind of money is a major turn off.

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