Fair is fair . . . Georgia Democrats propose an anti-vasectomy bill

[Jon Miller]

Yeah, but kids of 10 are even costly.

Is expense a reason to kill your 10 yo child?

It doesn't seem different.

JM

[DaShi]

What is interesting here is that the "pro-life" side here doesn't define their stance very clearly. Just that abortions are bad and should be prevented by any means necessary.

As PLATO said, in order to even have a part in this debate, you have to have some definition of when a person is a person. On the pro-abortion side, you'll find many who find late term abortions reprehensible. Why can't they just slide that bar a little lower to earlier terms? On the anti-abortion side, you'll find those that don't consider a few cells a person. Why can't they just slide that bar a bit higher to later terms? Of course, those at the very extremes on both sides are being irrational and aren't worth debating with.

Of course, that's just if you want to debate abortion. If you want to debate the Virginia law, you have to accept abortion as a legal right at this time. To do otherwise, would be to encourage illegal activity and move the debate beyond the issue at hand. Now, given that abortions are a legal right, how much should the government interfere in them? Laws like the one being debated in Virginia clearly become about individual liberties. Passing a law mandating an unnecessary procedure, like ultrasounds in this case, sets a dangerous precedent. If permitted, the government could pass laws mandating colonoscopies or that every person must have a physical examination twice a year that includes an enema. These at least have demonstrable value to patients.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Ectopic pregnancy, Jon. I'm going to insist on your answer.

[MRT144]

Yeah, but kids of 10 are even costly.

Is expense a reason to kill your 10 yo child?

It doesn't seem different.

JM

It is a reason. Not a legally defensible one, but it is a reason.

[Hauldren Collider]

Ectopic pregnancy, Jon. I'm going to insist on your answer.

This is a corner case. A canard. Obviously the dynamic changes when the life of the mother is threatened; most abortion opponents fully agree with this. It's so rare, though, and so uncontroversial, bringing it up in a discussion like this is pointless.

[Jon Miller]

Ectopic pregnancy, Jon. I'm going to insist on your answer.

I already answered. I think on one of my earliest posts on the subject. And probably several times in this thread.

I don't see why the few cases where a woman's life is in danger means that all abortion should be legal.

JM

[Jon Miller]

BTW, I don't consider silly laws to help the matter either (like the one discussed in this thread).

I favor a ban on late term abortions (we can start with a ban on ones in the third trimester), where the mother does not face an immediate threat to her life.

We can then, as a society, work from there.

JM

Didn't take me long to find this.

JM

[giblets]

It means they were lied to.

The same lie in this thread (the baby is not a person), but a lot more effort is put into convincing african-americans. And others whose children would be undesirable.

JM

Not a lie. Stop claiming your opinions are facts. You are such an extremist.

[MRT144]

I already answered. I think on one of my earliest posts on the subject. And probably several times in this thread.

I don't see why the few cases where a woman's life is in danger means that all abortion should be legal.

JM

So would you make an exemption for those few fringe cases?

[Jon Miller]

I think that, just like in cases with adults, that if the life of the mother is at risk that this needs to be decided by the people involved (most importantly, the mother).

Fourth post in the thread.

There was also a post where I said I would be OK with early abortions.

JM

[Imran Siddiqui]

You need to be more careful here. The reality is that "under certain circumstances" includes a number of corner cases. Most people would agree that in the case of life-threatening pregnancy, abortion is justified. This, however, is somewhat of a canard due to its rarity. If you look at the number of people who consider themselves pro-life and pro-choice, a much better metric of whether people think abortion should be more restricted or less, the numbers are far more fluid, and if I recall correctly, these days people under the age of 30 are substantially more likely to oppose the current looseness of abortion restrictions than those over 30. The pro-abortion crowd is aging and dissipating.

And let's also realize that, as you have alluded to, the issue is abortion restrictions. The under 30 crowd isn't necessarily interested in restricting abortions entirely. However, they aren't all that fond of late term abortions (3rd trimester), which, btw most European countries put substantial restrictions upon.

I think to simply label people as "pro-life" and "pro-choice" is being too heavy handed. I mean, which am I if I want to allow it with some minor restrictions (I'm not going to ramparts for 24 hr waiting periods) up until the 24th month (6 months) and then restrict it to only when the mother's life is at risk?

[giblets]

I think better of humanity than you do.

JM

That's funny because it seems like you are always looking for new ways to give the government more control over people's lives, like when you endorsed Lorizael's proposal to make people sterile until they get a "parenting certificate". Yeah, you really love humans so much that you don't trust them to do the right thing if they are free to make choices.

[giblets]

This is a corner case. A canard. Obviously the dynamic changes when the life of the mother is threatened; most abortion opponents fully agree with this. It's so rare, though, and so uncontroversial, bringing it up in a discussion like this is pointless.

The vast majority of abortions are in the first trimester so I guess brain waves are a canard too.

[Jon Miller]

Anyone who wants to restrict abortion and speaks against the delusion that late term abortion is not the murder of children is a reactionary extremist who hates women and wants to return society to the stone age.

JM

[giblets]

I thought this was a cool video: