Should children be compelled to finish high school?

[Wezil]

Generally the 'some people' who are not academically inclined are exactly the same people who have been racially and/or economically subjugated. Society ****ed over the parents, and this is the reason why the children are 'not academically inclined'.

That may be one reason but certainly not the only reason. Some people are dumb Jon. You can educate them as long as you want but they are just going to be taking up space. Making these people finish high school rather than learn something they can actually use just doesn't make sense for them or us.

[Wezil]

For most people who are 'not academically inclined' at the level where they don't graduate highschool, the issue isn't one of intelligence or mental issues at all. It is rather those whose parents were economically and/or racially subjugated.

x-post I think. Addressed above.

Highschool (in the US) is easy, and graduation barely requires the basics of reading/writing/arithmetic.

And that is too much for some.

I have repeatedly said that if american's attitudes changed I would have no problem with a 2-track highschool with one track being trade oriented. I think many people shouldn't go to college, they are really just looking for the piece of paper (so their application is not thrown out) and it doesn't really profit them.

JM

Kind of like the meaningless high school diploma? The one you want to make easy enough for all to pass.

[giblets]

Regardless of whether racial or economic subjugation is the cause of their lack of interest in education, they still don't want to learn so what's the point of making them sit in school for hours? How is the government supposed to force someone to learn, should they beat them whenever they fail a test?

[Jon Miller]

That may be one reason but certainly not the only reason. Some people are dumb Jon. You can educate them as long as you want but they are just going to be taking up space. Making these people finish high school rather than learn something they can actually use just doesn't make sense for them or us.

People who are too dumb to graduate highschool (or get a GED) in the US are generally too dumb to learn a trade (this is ignoring the autistic type kids).

Just being honest here. If you can read, you can graduate highschool in the US (intelligence wise).

And you are the one who is equating doing a trade with being too dumb to graduate highschool.

JM

[Jon Miller]

Regardless of whether racial or economic subjugation is the cause of their lack of interest in education, they still don't want to learn so what's the point of making them sit in school for hours? How is the government supposed to force someone to learn, should they beat them whenever they fail a test?

Can you talk with me instead of with your imagination?

JM

[Wezil]

I went to a fairly good public school in a middle class neighbourhood free of racial or ethnic tensions. Oddly enough we still had some students that weren't able to handle the material.

[Wezil]

People who are too dumb to graduate highschool (or get a GED) in the US are generally too dumb to learn a trade (this is ignoring the autistic type kids).

Just being honest here. If you can read, you can graduate highschool in the US (intelligence wise).

And you are the one who is equating doing a trade with being too dumb to graduate highschool.

JM

No, I'm saying those too dumb to graduate high school can be useful with other skill sets (often in the trades). I'm not saying all tradespeople are dumb.

[Hauldren Collider]

Just being honest here. If you can read, you can graduate highschool in the US (intelligence wise).

Sounds like we need to make it harder.

[Wezil]

Sounds like we need to make it harder.

That's what I was thinking. Making it easier (or handing out a diploma if they sit quietly in their seats for a couple years) doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

[Jon Miller]

You know, in South Africa they had tracks for the 'not academically inclined' too.

Africans and Coloreds were trained in how to pick herd cows and be a janitor because they were not thought to be capable of more. And yes, when they were subjugated the kids would obviously struggle, which was used as a defense/etc.

The solution is not to give disadvantaged groups different tracks because 'they are not capable', but to build up the disadvantaged groups.

When there is (generally) little difference between the intelligence/social standing/etc of the two tracks (which is how it is mostly in europe), then you can have tracks and it is OK.

JM

[giblets]

No, I'm saying those too dumb to graduate high school can be useful with other skill sets (often in the trades). I'm not saying all tradespeople are dumb.

Gosh, he needs to stop arguing with his imagination

[Jon Miller]

That's what I was thinking. Making it easier (or handing out a diploma if they sit quietly in their seats for a couple years) doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

I am not at all suggesting that we do that. I have repeatedly said that I don't think we should do that.

JM

[Wezil]

You know, in South Africa they had tracks for the 'not academically inclined' too.

Africans and Coloreds were trained in how to pick herd cows and be a janitor because they were not thought to be capable of more. And yes, when they were subjugated the kids would obviously struggle, which was used as a defense/etc.

The solution is not to give disadvantaged groups different tracks because 'they are not capable', but to build up the disadvantaged groups.

When there is (generally) little difference between the intelligence/social standing/etc of the two tracks (which is how it is mostly in europe), then you can have tracks and it is OK.

JM

Alright, I can't really argue with that. If the US is still at the apartheid South Africa point with regard to race relations then I guess you're truly ****ed.

[Jon Miller]

If you introduced 'tracks' you can guarantee that there would be no real 'college track' offered in many districts dominated by latinos and african americans.

This is already sometimes the case. No art or drama or advanced science/language/mathematicas/etc courses or support for going to college in some districts.

JM

[Wezil]

We had the same streaming vs destreaming argument here and the same PC argument was made. "We can't have streaming as that would just be taking the easy route and marginalizing the disenfranchised", whoever they are (those with less than 2 cars in the family I guess would do it for my childhood neighbourhood).

I get it, and appreciate your comments on the US situation (which obviously didn't play a part in our debate here) but I think it completely ignores reality. Formal education just isn't a "one size fits all" affair, and I would argue that the end result here (destreaming won) was a marked reduction in the overall quality of education provided. The standards dropped.