Question about Mary Jane

[Thoth]

i think we should get together and fund a nationwide campaign where kidicious explains why MJ should remain illegal. once people have heard his arguments, and the intelligent way he expresses them, we'll have it legalised in no time.

[Thoth]

Pot is mildly destructive. The War on Drugs is seriously destructive.

Yep. Drugs (including pot, alcohol, tobacco, heroin and cocaine) can and often do inflict a great deal of harm on the people who abuse them. The "War on Drugs" makes the degree of harm several orders of magnitude greater.

Stop treating drug abuse as a crime and start treating it as a disease. It'll be a **** of a lot cheaper and will do more people more good.

[Thoth]

I am one of those people who look stoned when I'm 100 percent sober. I have been given sobriety tests and have not had a drop to drink or any drugs in my system whatsoever. Still, the police swore up and down I was on something. I don't think that the war on drugs is the destroyer, although, the war has probably been largely unsuccessful, the problem is still the drugs and the effect on society. I spend 4 nights a week in the streets and I see all kinds of ****. A good portion of crime is somehow drug related. Crackheads are the copper thieves and crackheads are the ones breaking into homes to steal so they can pawn or trade the goods for drugs. Dope boys are the ones that are robbing other dope boys far there product and dope boys are the ones that are shooting each other and innocent bystanders. Drugs whole scale are a poison to any society. Look at the effect of opium on china. Look at the effect of drugs on returning vietnam vets, civil war vets and ww1 vets that were treated with narcotics for their injuries. I don't know why this is even the subject of an argument. There is historical data that proves drugs are bad too the general population. Now of course, some one will point out several historical figures that used drugs to counter that argument but on the scale of things even if the number of successful historical figures numbered in the thousands would that negate all the drug addicts past and present whose lives have been ruined by cocaine, morphine, heroin, lsd, marijuana and etc...I think that we would be better off without drugs than we are with drugs.

And how does making the use/abuse of those drugs illegal solve the problem? If making drugs illegal was the solution then we wouldn't be having this conversation because no-one would be doing them.

Making drugs illegal puts money and power into the hands of gangs and organised crime. It puts a stigma on useage and helps to prevent abusers from seeking help due to fear of jail time.

The problem isn't that people are using drugs, the problem is that the drugs are illegal. Legalized drugs would still cause problems, but those problems would be several orders of magnitude lesser than the problems caused by illegal drug use.

[Jon Miller]

The reason why I am in favor of decriminalization or even legalization is because, at least in the west, pot use has become common and accepted.

Prohibition didn't really work for alcohol. This was because it was common and accepted. Making it illegal just meant that a large potion of the population had a law exist that they didn't believe in.

Same is true, at least in the west, I think for pot.

JM
(A better approach would be to hit with PR like what has been done with tobacco. This would be far better than prohibition.)

[Jon Miller]

The problem isn't that people are using drugs, the problem is that the drugs are illegal. Legalized drugs would still cause problems, but those problems would be several orders of magnitude lesser than the problems caused by illegal drug use.

Why do you think this is true of all drugs?

I can give one example where I think it is obviously not true (crocadile or whatever).

JM

[Pax]

And how does making the use/abuse of those drugs illegal solve the problem? If making drugs illegal was the solution then we wouldn't be having this conversation because no-one would be doing them.
Making drugs illegal puts money and power into the hands of gangs and organised crime. It puts a stigma on useage and helps to prevent abusers from seeking help due to fear of jail time.
The problem isn't that people are using drugs, the problem is that the drugs are illegal. Legalized drugs would still cause problems, but those problems would be several orders of magnitude lesser than the problems caused by illegal drug use.

Good questions and points. This is something I have probably said before...
There is a gas station in my area that basically sells crack kits. The hotel right next to it is a known drug and prostitution spot. Crackheads, prostitutes and dealers hang outside both locations all night. I can pull into the parking lot and depending on several circumstances get charges on the subjects for loitering, loitering for drugs and etc. The first charge loitering depends on if the store managerhas a problem with the person standing outside his store. He usually does not because that person is a customer i.e. he buys the crack kits. Now, when I leave and that person steals something out of the store the manager will call me back but the guy is long gone. Now, I have to do a report that takes time because the store manager is allowing potential criminals to loiter outside his establishment. Next, related issue, there are actually ordnances in place that if enforced with close the gas station and the hotel. Why are they not enforced? Money and politics. The store and hotel both bring in tax dollars and to some extent can operate without worrying about being shut down. In summary, too win the war on drugs we would have to enforce all the laws from the top down and not offer any quarter or haven to the drug users, dealers and those who provide the services that keep them in business.
Oh yeah, crack kits are legal.

[Felch]

Why do you think this is true of all drugs?

I can give one example where I think it is obviously not true (crocadile or whatever).

JM

Krokodil is not legal, it's not pure, and it's not really relevant. The drug is synthesized because the precursor chemical (codeine) is legal without a prescription. If Russians could get pure heroin on the open market, like Bayer once produced, they wouldn't be injecting the drug equivalent of bathtub gin into their bodies. Heroin isn't good for you, but it's nowhere near as dangerous as bathtub krokodil.

[Berzerker]

I strongly disagree with those that say that pot is harmless and has not destroyed lives.

Just like I strongly disagree with those that say that alcohol is harmless and has not destroyed lives.

Lying about drugs does no one any good.

Generally I am pro legalization or at least decriminalization.

jm

I never heard anyone say alcohol is harmless, and the rare times someone said pot was harmless was in comparison to tobacco and booze, the mere act of inhaling smoke (which can be avoided) is "harm"... Now if we can get Prohibitionists to admit to the negative consequences of drug wars we might get somewhere in this debate, but there is NO comparison between pro-drug and anti-drug BS, the drug war is based on lies, racism, hypocrisy and immorality.

I recently started a thread about traffic fatalities in California for 2008, and from the actual numbers it appeared to me 1 person may have died in a car crash because someone was too high to drive safely. The % of the population using pot nearly matched the % of pot "related" traffic fatalities. That was not true for other drugs like alcohol, not even true for cell phone users, etc. And I imagine those numbers are even more impressive given that motorists who smoke pot tend to be younger and drive more and account for a higher % of road miles. Maybe thats why Prohibitionists consistently include alcohol when talking about pot and driving...

[kentonio]

No I am not.

I explicitly said that pot did not destroy all lives and that some people can handle it.

I have friends who regularly smoke and do physics research.

I am saying that those who say that pot is completely harmless and has never destroyed a life are ridiculous. All I need is one exception to disprove you, and I have several in my personal experience (family members actually).

Meaningless. Volleyball has also 'destroyed a life' as a result of a broken back suffered playing it. You can say that about basically anything in the world and find an example to support you, its just meaningless.

I'm actually not a pot fan at all. I find it boring as hell to be quite honest, but the idea that its in any way comparable to the likes of heroin, crack, meth etc is just idiotic.

Yes some people start smoking pot and waste their lives. So ****ing what, if thats how they chose to spend their time, then maybe they end up happier more satisfied people than they would otherwise anyway. Most times people turn into slackers and then grow out of it after a few years anyway (as long as the retarded 'war on drugs' doesn't ruin their lives for them first.

[kentonio]

In summary, too win the war on drugs we would have to enforce all the laws from the top down and not offer any quarter or haven to the drug users, dealers and those who provide the services that keep them in business.

Sorry dude, but how many times are we going to hear that same logical fallacy from law enforcement?

'If only we cracked down harder'!
'If only we sentenced more strongly!'
'If only we put more funding into enforcement!'

It's the same tired lines that have cost billions of dollars and thousands of lives. People have been finding ways to intoxicate themselves and change their mental states for thousands of years. No number of cops, prisons, etc are going to suddenly make people not want to anymore. This needs to stop, the costs in money and lives is just beyond a joke.

[Felch]

To be fair to Pax, I think he realizes that it's not winnable.

[Kidlicious]

According to kentonio volleyball is just as bad for you as pot. He fits right in around here.

[Kidlicious]

Pot is mildly destructive. The War on Drugs is seriously destructive.

This is a subjective statement. How bad is it for one person to constantly smoke pot (I'm sure you're aware that pot heads reach for the bong before they get out of bed). Now multiply that by 10 million. That's what you call mild?

[Felch]

The War on Drugs is expensive to the government, profitable to terrorists and other criminals, harmful to addicts, and ineffective at preventing drug use. If it accomplished what it set out to accomplish, it might have merit. Instead it is a total abject failure, one that weakens our republic while strengthening our enemies, and far more harmful than benevolent neglect.

[C0ckney]

felch