Margaret Thatcher was Britains greatest leader since Churchill. Discuss.

[Hauldren Collider]

It's not like Britain's got a great history of making good on its colonial deals, anyway. Both Hong Kong and Britain stood to gain from Hong Kong remaining an overseas territory. So what if it was a deal? Deals aren't worth a whole lot internationally, and deals made generations ago are worth even less.

It's all moot, obviously, since the handover happened. I'm just pointing out that it didn't need to.

[Imran Siddiqui]

That's like saying why should the US honor the deal to turn over the Panama Canal? If you aren't willing to go through on deals, no one is making them with you in the future.

[DaShi]

It's not like Britain's got a great history of making good on its colonial deals, anyway. Both Hong Kong and Britain stood to gain from Hong Kong remaining an overseas territory. So what if it was a deal? Deals aren't worth a whole lot internationally, and deals made generations ago are worth even less.

It's all moot, obviously, since the handover happened. I'm just pointing out that it didn't need to.

I'd say to think about it, but the result of that was this:

Yes, they absolutely could have. China would not have contested, for a few reasons: 1, if they had tried to fight a war over Hong Kong, enough of the city would have been destroyed to make it worthless anyway. 2, Britain's Navy, although much smaller than ours, is orders of magnitude more capable than China's. 3, both countries have nukes and the Chinese would be reluctant to enter a shooting war with another nuclear power.

1. This would have been the same case for Britain.
2. Regardless, it would turn Hong Kong from a colony to an occupation. China wouldn't need to fire a shot. They'd just wait as the Hong Kong economy collapses and the strain of defending it becomes too costly and unpopular for Britain to continue. Not to mention the huge PR disaster it would create for Great Britain.
3. Again, this would have been the same case for Britain.

[Hauldren Collider]

That's like saying why should the US honor the deal to turn over the Panama Canal? If you aren't willing to go through on deals, no one is making them with you in the future.

That's fine--what other territory would the UK need to make a deal about?

[giblets]

That's like saying why should the US honor the deal to turn over the Panama Canal? If you aren't willing to go through on deals, no one is making them with you in the future.

It's inconceivable that the UK would ever need to sign a treaty in the future, so why should they care about their reputation? /sarcasm

[Hauldren Collider]

As far as I can tell, for the most part treaties aren't really worth that much anyway. I'm sure Imran will indignantly contest this claim with some patronizing bull****.

[Sava]

Treaties are great if you don't have dishonest little twerps failing to hold up their end of the bargain.

[Hauldren Collider]

A lot of countries manage to get away with breaking trade treaties, weapons treaties, and other stuff without more than a slap on the wrist.

[Sava]

Yes... because there are lots of dishonest little twerps.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

that's a silly interpretation. it's perfectly clear that kentonio meant from churchill up until the present day.

You're his spokesman? OK, let's have the official comment on why he didn't seem to think this through very effectively.

[notyoueither]

'Was' does not imply the valuation stopped with Thatcher.

Maybe Kentonio thinks Cameron is the new great leader and so Thatcher was better than Blair.

[notyoueither]

My impression as an outsider is that she was a very good leader and PM.

My impression is that she kicked ass and changed conditions in the country from those of bleak prospects and dwindling wealth to those where growth was possible. She also played a valuable role on the international stage (no, not the wars).

[kentonio]

You're his spokesman? OK, let's have the official comment on why he didn't seem to think this through very effectively.

I did indeed mean up till the present day. Blair was ridiculous.

'Was' does not imply the valuation stopped with Thatcher.

Maybe Kentonio thinks Cameron is the new great leader and so Thatcher was better than Blair.

Thatcher was a far better leader than Blair, because she had principles and stuck to them. You may not have liked what those principles were, but you knew what they were. I used to have a lot of respect for Old Labour despite disagreeing with most of their positions, but New Labour was little more than a media machine. I'm not a huge fan of Cameron and the new Eton leadership, but it was inevitable after Blair. Nick Clegg and the debate performances proved conclusively that TV shine and performace has become far more important than substance to a huge number of voters. Then again the US already proved that with the JFK/Nixon debates way back when. I guess it just took us a while to catch up.

[C0ckney]

You're his spokesman? OK, let's have the official comment on why he didn't seem to think this through very effectively.

well kentonio has now stated what he meant. i accept your apology.

now maybe you could explain why you found it so hard to deduce the meaning of a simple sentence.

[MikeH]

Yes, they absolutely could have. China would not have contested, for a few reasons: 1, if they had tried to fight a war over Hong Kong, enough of the city would have been destroyed to make it worthless anyway. 2, Britain's Navy, although much smaller than ours, is orders of magnitude more capable than China's. 3, both countries have nukes and the Chinese would be reluctant to enter a shooting war with another nuclear power.

Frankly, I don't know why the British didn't keep it.

You've got to be ****ing kidding.

We barely managed to retake the Falklands from a handful of barely trained conscripts. It was a massive undertaking and our military cuts meant that, by the time Hong Kong was given back we wouldn't even have been able to do that.

Plus it was a lease, going back on a deal would have been horrible business, we'd have had no international legitimacy or support for such action. We'd have been utterly ****ed. Even if their tactics purely involved walking slowly towards us until we ran out of bullets.