What if: US marines vs Roman legions

[Felch]

How long would a town remain standing after the first Marine was stabbed?

Weren't you just saying that the Marines have a decades' experience fighting counterinsurgency? Destroying a town over one dead Marine is a terrible idea.

Why? It's exactly what the Roman people would expect. We don't do it anymore because of the Fourth Geneva Convention, but the Romans predate that. Killing **** tons of people is a great counter insurgency method. It's why the Allies didn't spend a decade pacifying the Germans or Japanese. It's monstrous, but certainly effective. A depopulated area can't sustain guerrillas.

[Al B. Sure!]

I'm not sure that an arrow wouldn't penetrate an MTV.

Still, archers vs. men with M4's... it's obvious who gets slaughtered.

[Tupac Shakur]

If bows and arrows worked against modern infantry, people would still use them.

This is just stupid. A bow and arrow may very well work against modern infantry, but a cheap black-market AK47 works a hell of a lot better. Anyone with a brain will choose the latter, but not because the bow is inherently worthless.

Killing **** tons of people is a great counter insurgency method.

2000 Marines simply can't kill enough people to crush Roman resistance; they need to ingratiate themselves with the local population or they will die once their modern supplies run out. Wiping out entire Roman towns is just signing your own death warrant once your last bullet is fired.

[Al B. Sure!]

And it's not like the Romans were known for their archery. Archers played a very small role in the Roman military.

[Felch]

MTVs have ceramic plates (SAPI). The arrow would go through kevlar fibers, but not the plate.

[kentonio]

They would likely believe they were fighting gods-- maybe the first legion faces a tank and a pair of APCS and all they do is run over Legionares-- Those transport aircraft would again warn of the location of anything that could remotely harm the vehicles

Where do those aircraft take off from? Where do they land? How do they navigate with no GPS or ground based navigation support?

Oh, the ancients had magical powers that let them shoot arrows through MTVs? How long would a town remain standing after the first Marine was stabbed?

Armour wasn't exactly unknown to the Romans remember. Archers were extremely accurate in the times when archery was a genuine method of war. As for towns remaining standing, do these marines trained to obey the constitution suddenly become heartless murderers who will happily raze a town and murder all its inhabitants?

So the Romans didn't speak with British accents, and they didn't get their hair done by Hollywood makeup artists. We still aren't that ignorant as a society. Writings survive from Plutarch, Cicero, Tacitus, and others. Out of 2000 Marines, enough of them would be history nerds to have a pretty good idea of what was going on.

No it goes deeper than that, we have some writings sure, but huge amounts of what we think of as Roman culture are based on very limited evidence. There would be huge surprises awaiting even a professional historian, let alone an amateur history nerd.

There'd be a colonel in command. His job is to not be the ***** that you mistake him for. He's been fighting wars for most of his adult life, and he's probably comfortable making decisions. Hell, he'd be ecstatic to be able to run wild without a bunch of bull**** oversight.

I think you're underestimating how much even senior officers depend on instruction from above. They may ***** about REMF ****s interfering but if you remove any orders whatsoever, that command suddenly becomes an incredibly lonely place to be. What does that colonel do? His first thought is the safety of his men, but after that there is literally no saying what he decides. Becoming a king of the area might not seem such an outrageous idea.

The junior officers, and enlisted men will fall into place, because that's what they do.

No they didn't sign up for this kind of ****. This is two thousand years away from home, and all logic and sanity gone from the world. The junior officers will obey initially, but if things start getting crazy, and the colonel starts getting ideas of regional domination, that carefully trained obedience is going to start to fray. They aren't fighting for America any more, are they really going to be comfortable fighting as this colonels private mercenary army? Maybe, as they have noone else initially to relate to, but it isn't going to take that long before factions start to form.

They're not wine-sipping hippie tree-huggers. They're battle-hardened killing machines. They signed up for this kind of ****. Conquering the Roman Empire would be the coolest thing any of them could possibly imagine. ****, I wish I could do it.

Nice idea but they're also sons, husbands and fathers who are going to be coming to the realization that they may never see their families again. Suddenly they aren't going to be quite such battle-hardened killers.

[BlackCat]

If bows and arrows worked against modern infantry, people would still use them.

Didn't rambo use a bow and arrow in afghanistan ?

On a serious note, guns are way easier to get, train and use, so why bother ? It takes years to be a good shot with a bow, but thats exactly what a roman bowman will have.

They're bringing along most of their supplies. That would mean hundreds of round per Marine, maybe a quarter of a million bullets? I don't know the exact figures, but that's certainly a reasonable number to bring. How many hundreds of thousands of people would they have to kill before they got their message across?

Yep, they would probably have a large amount of small arm munition, but I talked about arty - that would be way less.

[Tupac Shakur]

As for towns remaining standing, do these marines trained to obey the constitution suddenly become heartless murderers who will happily raze a town and murder all its inhabitants?

I have no doubt that this will happen.

[Flubber]

I don't think they were supermen at ALL but I am assuming that they don't drop down and face 11 Legions immediately

Facing eleven Legions at once is the best case scenario for the Marines, as it would allow them to wipe out organized resistance before their supplies start to run out and the Romans learn that they can't face the Marines in open battle. Time is on the Romans' side, as they can use guerilla tactics to wear down the small Marine force as it bleeds supplies and unit cohesion.

Who's picking them off in ambushes? Do the Romans know how to make IEDs? These are battle hardened men, who've fought insurgencies for a solid decade. They're not going to be killed by bandits with swords.

The Marines aren't going to be able to stay together forever once they start having to foraging for food, and they do have to sleep sometime.

Have you read my posts? I am proposing they kill the first legion and take its food and begin organized foraging-- a say 50 man squad dresses as Romans and goes to villages with no Legionares for tribute-- Others try to trade for fish or whatever etc etc-- After killing the first legion they might have weeks to prepare for the next attack


Also, while I don't preclude it happening, the Romans were not known for guerrila warfare. To think that they could sneak up on a force that has air surveillance and night vision capabilities-- I don't buy it-- More likely that any small squads or even innnocent travellers are either killed or scared off


AS for sleeping-- My model is the Marines sanitize an area with no people in it (displace a small port or find a peninsula thatis easily defended)-- acouple of dozen sentries with night vision should suffice-- its not like a large force of hundreds could sneak up on them and you could place the sentries inside stationary APCs or tanks of you were really worried someone could see them first and pick them off with an arrow

[Felch]

This is just stupid. A bow and arrow may very well work against modern infantry, but a cheap black-market AK47 works a hell of a lot better. Anyone with a brain will choose the latter, but not because the bow is inherently worthless.

Compared to an M4, a bow is worthless. It's an invitation to get killed.

Look at Roman history. They were never the sorts to act irrationally. When at a disadvantage, they generally cut their losses, and sued for peace. Acting like they'd go on fighting is the stupidest thing I've heard. It'd be much easier to accommodate the Americans, feed them, give them wine to drink and slaves to ****, than to shoot arrows at them from the treeline.

[Al B. Sure!]

Where do those aircraft take off from? Where do they land? How do they navigate with no GPS or ground based navigation support?

The aircraft are helicopters and Harriers. They don't need much space to take off or land. And navigate with no GPS? Huh? You really think these pilots are that stupid that they can't fly the old fashioned way? Jeez, how did people fly before GPS?

Armour wasn't exactly unknown to the Romans remember. Archers were extremely accurate in the times when archery was a genuine method of war. As for towns remaining standing, do these marines trained to obey the constitution suddenly become heartless murderers who will happily raze a town and murder all its inhabitants?

Archery was a genuine method of war... yes, because the Romans were known in ancient times for their archery

No it goes deeper than that, we have some writings sure, but huge amounts of what we think of as Roman culture are based on very limited evidence. There would be huge surprises awaiting even a professional historian, let alone an amateur history nerd.

So? Why would these 'surprises' matter? Tell me one hypothetical 'surprise' that would be relevant.

[BlackCat]

Compared to an M4, a bow is worthless. It's an invitation to get killed.

Look at Roman history. They were never the sorts to act irrationally. When at a disadvantage, they generally cut their losses, and sued for peace. Acting like they'd go on fighting is the stupidest thing I've heard. It'd be much easier to accommodate the Americans, feed them, give them wine to drink and slaves to ****, than to shoot arrows at them from the treeline.

I think Hannibal has a quite different opinion on this.

[Tupac Shakur]

After killing the first legion they might have weeks to prepare for the next attack

Why would there be a next attack? The Romans may indeed be dumb enough to waste more than one Legion in an impossible battle with the Marines, but they're eventually going to figure out that they can't win that way and will change tactics.

To think that they could sneak up on a force that has air surveillance and night vision capabilities-- I don't buy it

Why would you try to sneak up on the Marines? They're going to have to start moving around the countryside to forage and will eventually be tempted to enter towns, which is when you can start picking them off as conditions allow. At any rate, air surveillance will quickly disappear for lack of fuel, and night vision goggle will eventually run out of batteries. It only takes waiting a few months for the Marines to become much less formidable.

[Flubber]

2000 Marines simply can't kill enough people to crush Roman resistance; they need to ingratiate themselves with the local population or they will die once their modern supplies run out. Wiping out entire Roman towns is just signing your own death warrant once your last bullet is fired.

I agree-- I think they kill just enough to terrorize the Legions and make them want to avoid you- They don't know your supplies are limited -- all they know is

men die with no one near
officers die from rocks raining from the sky
there are reports of beasts that run over HUNDREDS of Legionares, Crushing them


hmm does an MEU have anyhting in the way of boats? I am going to assume that the ability to build a boat might be beyond them but I am guessing they could take a few sailboats for fishing-- who would stop them? You tow the zodiacs and only burn gas when threatened

If the Marines sit and wait in their prepared positions, I don't see the Legions ever overcoming them-- There wouldn't be the will among the common mercernary to keep going

[Tupac Shakur]

If the Marines sit and wait in their prepared positions, I don't see the Legions ever overcoming them-- There wouldn't be the will among the common mercernary to keep going

If the Marines just sit in prepared positions, the Romans win by default.