What if: US marines vs Roman legions

[kentonio]

The aircraft are helicopters and Harriers. They don't need much space to take off or land. And navigate with no GPS? Huh? You really think these pilots are that stupid that they can't fly the old fashioned way? Jeez, how did people fly before GPS?

If it's Harriers and choppers then yes they can probably still fly for a while, but their effectiveness is vastly reduced without GPS or ground navigation. You fancy flying a Harrier with a map and a frikkin compass?

Archery was a genuine method of war... yes, because the Romans were known in ancient times for their archery

They are known to have had archers, which means that those archers were capable. Not at the standard of some other forces probably, but if you couldn't shoot straight then you weren't going to live long as an archer now, were you?

So? Why would these 'surprises' matter? Tell me one hypothetical 'surprise' that would be relevant.

How about negotiating with the Romans only to find that some expression or gesture you thought was positive turned out to be some hideous insult? The list of possible ****ups is literally endless.

[Flubber]

Why would there be a next attack? The Romans may indeed be dumb enough to waste more than one Legion in an impossible battle with the Marines, but they're eventually going to figure out that they can't win that way and will change tactics.


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Good point--But if this were somewhere close to Rome itself they would feel threatened and would likley send a second Legion to investigate because the reports they would get would be sketchy-- Even in WWI there was often little good information as to what had happened in a battle-- The Romans would get weird stories from scatterings of people

[Flubber]

If the Marines sit and wait in their prepared positions, I don't see the Legions ever overcoming them-- There wouldn't be the will among the common mercernary to keep going

If the Marines just sit in prepared positions, the Romans win by default.

Depends what you mean by win-- IF an MEU went all over the place they would quickly expend fuel and ammo and die-- If they decided to be their own CIV as it were they could quickly hive off a small portion of the Roman empire and demand tribute for themselves. They would have ample clothes, uniforms and weapons to pose as Romans and since roman soldiers were a mongrels brew of nations and languages anyway, it would take even actual Roman soliders a while to realize they were not genuine-- So picking off a guy in town isn't that easy when you first have to figure out who or what he is-- Roman communication is VERY slow so if a squad real Roman soldiers came upon another squad in uniform-- why would they fight

Probably something old school to mark their territory like a line of skulls on sticks might suffice


I am assuming here that most of the villagers wouldn't care that they weren't really Romans as long as the tribute was reasonable and there wasn't too much raping and pilklaging (oh and wiping out a legion or two should give the marines ample coin)-- I bet most wouldn't figure it out as it would be just another group with swords and weird dialects

[Al B. Sure!]

Archers weren't used as snipers, right? I always imagined ancient archer infantry as just shooting volleys of arrows against massed formations.

[BlackCat]

Depends what you mean by win-- IF an MEU went all over the place they would quickly expend fuel and ammo and die-- If they decided to be their own CIV as it were they could quickly hive off a small portion of the Roman empire and demand tribute for themselves. They would have ample clothes, uniforms and weapons to pose as Romans and since roman soldiers were a mongrels brew of nations and languages anyway, it would take even actual Roman soliders a while to realize they were not genuine-- So picking off a guy in town isn't that easy when you first have to figure out who or what he is-- Roman communication is VERY slow so if a squad real Roman soldiers came upon another squad in uniform-- why would they fight

Probably something old school to mark their territory like a line of skulls on sticks might suffiece

IIRC, romans was a head or so smaller than the average today, so I don't think that they can hode that easily.

In the OP it was stated that there was only acces to transport helis, so no hawkers or attack helis

[Flubber]

My further thought is that if the Marines could hive off a sphere of influence they might get the time they need to build a walled town and start trying to modernize and building cannon or trying to find a way to make something their guns could shoot

[Al B. Sure!]

IIRC, romans was a head or so smaller than the average today, so I don't think that they can hode that easily.

Why does it matter if the AVERAGE Roman is shorter than the Marines?

[BlackCat]

Why does it matter if the AVERAGE Roman is shorter than the Marines?

Try read the Flubber part of what you quoted

[Flubber]

IIRC, romans was a head or so smaller than the average today, so I don't think that they can hode that easily.

In the OP it was stated that there was only acces to transport helis, so no hawkers or attack helis

I have assumed transports-- THats why I talked about dropping rocks on them instead of strafing runs (although a Marine could shoot his own weapon I guess)-- I figure an average Rock run could be an hour tops-- I know fuel is precious so maybe you just do it once

AS for the height thing they would claim to be Goths or Franks or northern germans or whatever new barbarians were in the Legion and about whom not much was known by the people in the area. I think it would hold up long enough for the Marines to get the drop on the Romans . or maybe your scouts are all shorter Hispanics LOL

[Al B. Sure!]

Try read the Flubber part of what you quoted

The average Danish man is what? 185cm? But if a guy strolled by who was 200cm would you be like "No! He's not a Dane!".

No you wouldn't. He wouldn't even cause you to bat an eye. Why? Because an average is an average. There is considerable variation. There were Romans as short as 152cm and as tall as 200cm, if not taller. The average may have been shorter, but that doesn't mean a 185cm Marine would stick out that much.

[kentonio]

Archers weren't used as snipers, right? I always imagined ancient archer infantry as just shooting volleys of arrows against massed formations.

They didn't just flip off arrows in an aimless swarm, arrows were aimed and for a well trained archer that can be extremely accurate. The main issue with them in that time would be range.

[Al B. Sure!]

BlackCat, when you hear of the life expectancy in the past, as recently as two centuries ago, being 45 or 50, do you think a 70 year old was unheard of at that time?

Your logic about height seems to indicate you do

[Flubber]

They didn't just flip off arrows in an aimless swarm, arrows were aimed and for a well trained archer that can be extremely accurate. The main issue with them in that time would be range.

Yes-- Sniper rifles and scopes mean archers would be dying before they saw their enemy

PLus I somehow suspect that the marines could build a shelter with gun slits and enough of a roof that the archers were completely ineffective


On the height thing--

Spanish, Italian and French Speakers would be preferred for scouting parties -- I bet they would have enough shorter Hspanic guys that they could carry off the ruse-- Again-- we are not trying to fool central command-- you are merely trying to fool some villagers who see Romans infrequently when they come for tribute and maybe a scattered very small Roman patrol-- I am assuming that big armies of hundreds would be spotted well in advance

The Romans would have little reason to suspect them-- other than legends about gods and beasts, the Romans "knew" they could not be beaten by men -- So anyone in Roman armour with Roman weapons and very much a mortal looking guy-- HAD to be a Roman-- average peasants could not get such weapons or symbols -- If you are a Roman and see a Legion wagon pulled up and collecting tribute, you just assume your wires got crossed somehow-- Its not like your Legion wouldn't have a wide variety of people and nationalities.


Oh and people mention things like no GPS or whatnot-- all they need is one guy with with an electronic device with some maps saved in it and they might have better maps than the Romans (plus of course they would have Roman maps from the first Legion they get)-- Sure GPS might be nice but when the order for a chopper is to fly in a circle for 15 minutes scouting, I think they could handle it


I wonder how long until they can invent hydro power-- They could scavenge wire from a HUMVEE or 3-- You said 60 of them right? I could see parking 30 of them inmmediately to save fuel and start using parts for other things

[BlackCat]

BlackCat, when you hear of the life expectancy in the past, as recently as two centuries ago, being 45 or 50, do you think a 70 year old was unheard of at that time?

Your logic about height seems to indicate you do

One woulld be a "wow look at that", two a coincidence and three a pattern

[The Mad Monk]

This is just stupid. A bow and arrow may very well work against modern infantry, but a cheap black-market AK47 works a hell of a lot better. Anyone with a brain will choose the latter, but not because the bow is inherently worthless.

Killing **** tons of people is a great counter insurgency method.

2000 Marines simply can't kill enough people to crush Roman resistance; they need to ingratiate themselves with the local population or they will die once their modern supplies run out. Wiping out entire Roman towns is just signing your own death warrant once your last bullet is fired.

Roman resistance will be limited to professional soldiers; everyone else is just trading one set of tyrants for another (in their view); they won't care either way.