Does hell really make sense?

[Jon Miller]

What if I lead a good life,
but because I was raised in another religion ask not God/Jesus for forgiveness of my sins,
but Shiva, Manitu, Odin or Allah (as I believe in one of them, such as a christian believes in God/Jesus)?

Why would Odin be able to grand you forgiveness or even request it?

I don't think you understand.

Islam recognizes the problem with humans, but the solution is a bit different (not a lot different, since they worship God).

JM

[Proteus_MST]

Why would Odin be able to grand you forgiveness or even request it?

I don't think you understand.

Islam recognizes the problem with humans, but the solution is a bit different (not a lot different, since they worship God).

JM

Yep, they even see Jesus as a Prophet (but not as god/son of god).

As for Odin...
well, assume it is some kind of modern sect that believes in Odin being capable of forgiving my sins (and that I don´t have to die on the battlefield to ascend to Valhalla, just to believe in the existence of the Aesir and beg them for forgiveness for my sins).

With other words, assume it is a religion not unlike the christian one, but the gods aren´t called YHWH, but it also believes that humans are sinful and they can be forgiven their sins if they pray to their god.

(well to give one example that is a little bit nearer to the point ... lets look at gnosticism. Gnostics where one of the early christianities but were persecuted and erradicated by mainstream christianity because of their differences in faith as soon as they gained power in the roman empire.
They (well, some of their sects) believed that YHWH created the world but that YHWH was rather evil and did the things attributed to him in the old testament. They also believed that there is a higher god above YHWH, that had nothing to do with the creation of the world (but with the creation of YHWH) and that it is this god which is the one who people have to love (and who also loves all humans) to gain entry to heaven (in contrast to mainstream christianity they also believed in reincarnation, i.e. people get another chance in another life to find this god in their hearts if they failed to do so in this one .... therefore there also is no hell in their faith). They (some of them) also believed that Jesus is a messenger of this higher god (well, more or less... rather it was of one of this gods "angels", Sophia (Wisdom) who sent Jesus to earth) and that therefore (many/most of the) the texts of the new testament constitute the real gospel (they however also believed in some kind of secret knowledge, Gnosis, that has to be found).
So, while they differ from catholicism and his offspring, they still have many parallels, even accept Jesus and (much/most of) the NT, but have some kind of other god)

With other words, they behave similar like christians in that they have a similar religion (may even believe in Jesus), and believe in their god forgiving their sins if they keep him in their hearts/preay to him, but just believe in another god that it is not YHWH (due to their birth/religion of their parents).

So it is fair that these people get treated different from christians with regards to entry into heaven?

[Kidlicious]

That's a lot of details. I wouldn't miss anything

[Barnabas]

Proteus, if you believe in the Christian God you can be sure that all the Christian sects that went extinct were not the real Church. Christ did not hand out books, he founded a Church and said the gates of hell would not prevail against his church, if gnostics, or donatists disappear, then they were not the true church.

With regards to Christianity, the main event, the resurrection, "happened" 2000 years ago more or less, at the Roman Empire, so it happened in historical times. And we can be quite sure that many Christians who had met and seen the historical Christ died as martyrs in the first century.

For me the options are

Christ somehow survived the crucifiction, perhaps he would taken off the cross too early, shows up to his followers, deceives them into making them believe he resurrected, later disappears but the early christians spread the gospel because they think Christ really resurrected.

It was all a lie made up by the early christians but they prefered to be killed and martyred instead of admitting it was all a lie, perhaps out of pride.

Or Christ really resurrected and then Christianity is true. That is the important thing, if you think the historical even of the resurrection really happened.

[Kidlicious]

Barnabas,
You don't believe church membership gets you into heaven, do you?

[Barnabas]

No, but I think properly consecrated priests with apostolic succession like those of the Catholic, Orthodox, or Oriental (copts, armenians, ethiopians) Church, have the power to forgive sins, which was given to the apostles by Jesus, something that makes going to heaven much easier, and that those priests can consacrate the Eucharist, something important since Jesus said we had to eat his body and drink his blood to be saved.

I don't put limits on God's mercy but I think it is safest to belong to the Catholic Church. And even if you are a Catholic, saving your sould is a difficult, long journey.

[Kidlicious]

You have to eat His flesh and drink His blood to.go.to heaven? You sure? I don't think any of what you said has any.basis in the bible. But it's interesting as I don't know much about catholicism. I believe catholics go to heaven though.

[Uncle Sparky]

What is the basis for your belief?

It isn't my belief. Read St. Cyprien's treaty De Catholicae Ecclesiae unitate published in 251.

[Kidlicious]

I'll pass since the OT mentions hell.

[Barnabas]

You have to eat His flesh and drink His blood to.go.to heaven? You sure? I don't think any of what you said has any.basis in the bible. But it's interesting as I don't know much about catholicism. I believe catholics go to heaven though.

It was taken from this

Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

41At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

43“Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’d Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

52Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

Many Disciples Desert Jesus

60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirite and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”

66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

Catholics believe in that quite literally, I think all Churches before the protestant reformation believed in that literally. The difference is that Catholics tried to explain the process that turns the bread into the body of christ with Aristotelian philosophy (transubstantation) while the Orthodox prefer to keep it as an unexplainable mistery.

Another "prerequisite" for salvation would be baptism too

[Kidlicious]

uIn verse 35 He says, "I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will not go hungry, and whoever believes in me will not go thirsty but will have eternal life." Other places in John make it clear that this means that those who do His will will recieve eternal life. Nothing should be more clear in the NT than that you have to love and obey God to.go to heaven.

Now taking cmmunion is indeed a commandment and it should be obeyed as well as washing the feet of the saints and everything else, but the bread is not real flesh and the wine is not real blood. That's offensive and theirs absoluyely no reason for it. You should do it to remember you commitment to Christ.

The same is true for baptism and the sinners prayer (which I don't think is an actual commandment but a lot of churches teach that it is)

The whole thing is not about church at all. Church leaders are stupid. This has been proven. It's about a personal relationship with God. If you don't have that you're not going to heaven. It doesn't matter if you eat certain bread and certain wine or get baptised, or say certain words.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

in case noone wrote it: Apolyton is hell.

and I am still coming back for more

[Dr Strangelove]

Ahrrrr................ Ye makes yer own hell, an' then ye lives in it. Ahrrrrrrrr.................

[Barnabas]

uIn verse 35 He says, "I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will not go hungry, and whoever believes in me will not go thirsty but will have eternal life." Other places in John make it clear that this means that those who do His will will recieve eternal life. Nothing should be more clear in the NT than that you have to love and obey God to.go to heaven.

Now taking cmmunion is indeed a commandment and it should be obeyed as well as washing the feet of the saints and everything else, but the bread is not real flesh and the wine is not real blood. That's offensive and theirs absoluyely no reason for it. You should do it to remember you commitment to Christ.

The same is true for baptism and the sinners prayer (which I don't think is an actual commandment but a lot of churches teach that it is)

The whole thing is not about church at all. Church leaders are stupid. This has been proven. It's about a personal relationship with God. If you don't have that you're not going to heaven. It doesn't matter if you eat certain bread and certain wine or get baptised, or say certain words.

With regards to "that is ofensive", the people to whom Jesus was speaking also found it ofensive


52Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, �How can this man give us his flesh to eat?�


60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, �This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?�

66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

Perhaps Jesus should have told them he was being allegorical, but he didnt

Jesus also said

Take this, all of you, and eat it:
this is my body which will be given up for you.

Take this, all of you, and drink from it:
this is the cup of my blood,
the blood of the new and everlasting covenant.
It will be shed for you and for all
so that sins may be forgiven.
Do this in memory of me.



As far as I know pretty much all Christians before the protestant reformation believed in the real presence. We have patristic evidence going to the first centuries, and some other stuff like Christians being considered cannibals by the Romans because of the eating Christ's body part.

I also don't think Church is irrelevant or an individual thing. Jesus founded a Church, the apostles belonged to the same Church, and they even had a council.
I don't see a reason why any Christians should think he has the right to ignore the first 3 Ecumenical Councils, they happened before the separation of the Oriental churches, and around 6 centuries before the separation of the Roman and Eastern Orthodox Church, you can pretty much say that there was only one Church on earth back then, Nestorians were condemned in the third one and nowadays are less than 200.000 in the middle east.

[Jon Miller]

Jesus consistently had people misunderstand Him and fail to understand His allegories/stories/etc. He did not choose to explain in detail to everyone (see the parable of the sower). Another similar example:

"1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2This man came to Jesus[a] by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him." 3Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again[b] he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?" 5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.[c] 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You[d] must be born again.' 8 The wind[e] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
9Nicodemus said to him, "How can these things be?" 10Jesus answered him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you[f] do not receive our testimony. 12If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.[g] 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.[h]"

JM