Terrorists cross Egyptian border; kill 6, wound 25 Israeli civilians

[Zevico]

Isn't it fantastic reading articles from known loons?

http://apolyton.net/showthread.php/1...s-a-conspiracy!

[C0ckney]

It is actually. The wall there has stopped most incursions. If you recall, there
used to be a nightclub going up in the air rather often... not any more.

and if you'd said effective in stopping terrorist attacks, you'd have been right, but you didn't. it's a very poor argument for 'good neighbours'.

[Aeson]

And what would President Obama do? One shudders to think but it might have something to do with playing golf.

I don't see what would be wrong with such a response.

[Az]

that's working out really well in the west bank...

It actually does, as terror attacks from the bank ceased, IDF presence in the territories has dropped, and the Palestinians have achieved true governance in areas considered to be the most volatile (Jenin).

Just look at Jenin now: Wall + All of Hamas dead or in prison -> No permanent IDF presence, no settlements, self governance.
This could be the model for a future peace with the Palestinians.

[Zevico]

This could be the model for a future peace with the Palestinians.

That's not a model for peace. That's putting up a concrete barrier between yourself and people who still want to kill you but lack the ability to destroy the wall. That's a model for temporarily preventing violent conflict, and a very sensible and commendable one, for that matter. But it doesn't necessarily mean that a permanent and peaceful solution will follow.

[MOBIUS]

Terrorists cross Egyptian border

Are you referring to the Israeli murder of Egyptian border guards...?

Israel would do well to start behaving itself now that Egypt has got rid of Mubarak.

[Az]

Or else what?

[C0ckney]

This could be the model for a future peace with the Palestinians.

like bantustans were a good model for peace in south africa you mean?

[Az]

The world is a Bantustan

[Al B. Sure!]

Azazel, on some real stuff, from your time in the IDF, what do they tell soldiers in these operations concerning rules of engagement? What's protocol for escalation of force?

[Zoetstofzoetje]

1) if it's not kosher and moves, shoot it!
2) demand apologies from infidels for having had to shoot afterwards.
3) regard goyim that complain as moving.

[Az]

Azazel, on some real stuff, from your time in the IDF, what do they tell soldiers in these operations concerning rules of engagement? What's protocol for escalation of force?

Wasn't combat, but enough of my friends were - this varies by time and operation. In any case, this was much more confusing as it seems that the terrorists were wearing Egyptian soldier uniforms... I am itching to read the declassified parts of the report.


Zosfgddfgdfh: you are hilarious, as always.

[Az]

Initial reports on what has happened have been published in limited edition. It seems like everyone wants to climb of their respective high horses. Actually, there were only 12 terrorists.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/report-three-egyptians-took-part-in-terrorist-attacks-on-southern-israel-1.380321

Report: Three Egyptians took part in terrorist attacks on southern Israel
According to report the three were members of extremist Islamic group, one of whom escaped from Egyptian prison during revolution against Hosni Mubarak.

By Avi Issacharoff

At least three of the perpetrators of the terrorist attack on the road to Eilat last Thursday were Egyptian citizens, according to a report in the Egyptian daily Al-Masry Al-Yaoum.

The report, based on a probe carried out by the Egyptian security forces, says that the three were members of an extremist Islamic group. One of them had escaped from an Egyptian prison during the revolution against Hosni Mubarak.


Defense Minister Ehud Barak, flanked by IDF chief Benny Gantz, left, and GOC Southern Command Tal Russo.

Photo by: Moti Milrod

In addition to the three, five Egyptian policemen and soldiers were also killed in the various firefights.

Haaretz has learned that 12 terrorists, in four groups, carried out the attack. The groups were dispersed over an area 12 kilometers long. At least some of the attackers wore brown uniforms, similar to those used by the Egyptian Army.

The terrorists also waved white handkerchiefs to fool Israeli motorists, pretending to come in peace. They opened fire at an Israel Defense Forces helicopter in a bid to shoot it down.

The investigation by the Egyptians has shown that Israeli troops entered into the Sinai Peninusla chasing after the terrorists. During the pursuit, fire was exchanged with Egyptian police. Moreover, an Israeli helicopter, according to the Egyptian probe, fired two rockets at the terrorists and fired machine guns at Egyptian policemen.

The gunship fire resulted in the death of an Egyptian officer, Ahmed Jalal, along with two policemen. In a later incident, another two Egyptian soldiers were killed. An Egyptian security vehicle making its way to the area of the incident was also attacked, but it remains unclear who was responsible.

Earlier in the week, Egypt's Supreme Military Council, the junta running the country, met to discuss the killing of the five Egyptian security officers. Tuesday, Egypt's foreign minister, Mohammed Kamel Amr, said that "at no point was there any intention on our part to recall our ambassador to Tel Aviv." He added that the presence of Egypt's ambassador in Israel serves national interests.

The Egyptian foreign minister's statements suggest a wish to return to normalcy in relations with Israel, and the demand for an apology has been sidelined for the time being. In Cairo the expression of sympathy by Defense Minister Ehud Barak was perceived as a step in the right direction.

Despite protests in Cairo, it is clear there is an awareness in Egypt of the possibility that some soldiers serving near the area of the attack had been involved in the shooting at Israelis.

Egyptian intelligence is also aware of cooperation between members of the Popular Resistance Committees in the Gaza Strip with Islamist activists operating in the Sinai desert.

A senior Egyptian figure told Haaretz that Israel should be sensitive to Egyptian public opinion in view of the changes that his country has undergone recently, and appreciate that the killing of Egyptian soldiers and Palestinians touches a sensitive nerve.

As the Sinai Peninsula has become a refuge for extremist organizations, it is difficult to collect intelligence about goings on there. At the Southern Command, great efforts are being made to achieve a permanent barrier, and the GOC, Major General Tal Russo, is planning to have it ready before the end of 2012, six months ahead of the originally planned date.

Meanwhile, Russo was severely criticized for opening up Route 12 to motorists. Russo admitted that he had made a mistake in light of the intelligence warnings that had been available.

Ehud Barak opted to reprimand the commander in public, in an interview to Ma'ariv - yet another example of showing insight retroactively.

Haaretz has learned it is doubtful whether Russo or any commander would have behaved differently given the available information. The intelligence warning had been an old one, and even though it was still pending, it had not become any stronger during the days before the attack.

The IDF decided, however, to step up preparedness in certain border areas, including the area where the attack took place.

The Shin Bet security service in its assessments thought any attack would come at night, and would focus on attempting to kidnap a soldier and carry him into Egyptian territory.

Moreover, intelligence assessments did not expect the attack to take place near an Egyptian police position, as it did. Also, the attack had been expected closer to the weekend.

In terms of possible targets, the intelligence assessments held that the attackers would first aim to hit IDF patrols. One scenario posed an attack during the day, but the target was expected to be the hundreds of workers building the border fence, and not civilian vehicles.

The attack ultimately proved contrary to the most likely scenarios.

At the point where the attack occurred, the IDF had actually amassed forces. North of the area a Golani force had been deployed, and there were additional forces to the south.

The incident involving the Egyptians occurred later in the afternoon, while the chief of staff and the defense minister held a press conference north of Eilat. An IDF force rushed to an area where there had been more shooting. Egyptian soldiers were seen holding three men at gunpoint.

When the Israeli officers asked for the captives to be handed over, an Egyptian officer claimed that they were Egyptian soldiers. At some point the troops came under fire, and a sniper killed the anti-terrorist police officer Pascal Avrahami.

IDF and Egyptian soldiers were facing each other along the border and they came under fire from one of the groups of terrorists. They were neutralized by the soldiers. The incident ended about 6 P.M.

While Egyptian security conducted a search in the Sinai Peninsula, a suicide bomber detonated an explosive device.

Egyptian security forces claimed to have killed two terrorists. The IDF and special police forces claimed eight terrorists killed. Apparently, two others were not caught.

The incident, in spite of the planning by the terrorists and the timing, could have had much worst results. The army's presence in the area and the aggressive response by the anti-terrorist police unit and the soldiers proved effective.

[Zevico]

As to which Rubin says:

I want to stress that these breaking stories are not confirmed though they are plausible. Keep them in mind and we will see if they prove to be true:

1. A relatively reliable Egyptian newspaper is reporting that three of the terrorists killed in the cross-border attack on Israel were Egyptian citizens. Since the terrorists went from Gaza through Egyptian territory it is quite likely that they had such help and participation by Egyptians. If true, will the Egyptian government acknowledge this and what group did the Egyptian terrorists work with inside their country?

And on other subjects:

2. An Israeli newspaper report says that the Egyptian government warned Israel that if there was a major Israeli operation against the Gaza Strip, where Hamas was launching about 100 rockets against Israel, it could not guarantee being able to control its population. If the report is accurate, the warning was not a threat but a statement of concern seeking to avoid a confrontation. The Israeli government decided not to respond with a major operation at this time. I believe this is the correct decision, especially on the eve of the UN debate over a Palestinian unilateral declaration of independence. Israel wants to maximize international support over the next month. The timing will be better in future, as well as having better intelligence.

Again, I would stress that the report of the warning is not confirmed. I would add, by the way, that the situation in Egypt is likely to worsen over time, especially once the military government leaves office. But on the other side, if Israel is going to attack the Gaza Strip it might be preferable to do so when the Egyptian army isn’t running things, and thus doesn’t feel directly attacked itself. The level of provocation could be clearer and the UN issue over. All of this could happen as early as late November.

It is of the greatest importance that the U.S. government make clear to Egypt’s regime the “red lines” that the Obama Administration would not allow to be crossed. A normal U.S. government would politely lay out the conditions that would lead to a cut-off of U.S. aid to Egypt (suspending the peace treaty with Israel; assisting terrorists to cross the border; allowing a free flow of weapons into the Gaza Strip, the failure to protect American citizens and property, etc). The fact that this isn’t going to happen due to President Barack Obama’s unique approach to international affairs makes a future war likely.

3. A good report on the attacking Palestinian group is available here http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/mal...l/ipc_e218.htm .Portions of the group work with al-Qaida; other factions work closely with Hamas. A key question is going to be whether Israel decides that Hamas was directly involved in the attack, increasing the likelihood of direct retaliation in the coming months.

[Asher]

As to which Rubin says:

Are you really this much of an idiot, or do you truly enjoy reading lunatic opinions just because they make you feel warm and fuzzy?