Thread in which the world laughs at America

[Jon Miller]

Sure, but OTOH you were in need of a small attitude adjustment as I'm sure you'll agree.

In general, how we interact with the rest of the world, I disagree.

JM

[Kitschum]

In general, how we interact with the rest of the world, I disagree.

JM

Care to elaborate? Business as usual? USA rah-rah-rah?

[giblets]

accurate proportions

[Jon Miller]

There is nothing wrong about feeling proud about your country.

There is nothing wrong with using your position in the world to further your own interests in the world. It would be a waste and an abdication of responsibility to not do so.

The problems in the US are all internal ones. The Patriot Act, the atrocious prison systems, the recent political brinkmanship to name three obvious ones. All are pretty unrelated to how we interact with the rest of the world.

And the current problems have everything to do with internal issues and nothing to do with some external problem.

So yes, I disagree.

And I know that europeans love to condemn the US for this, but that is just their way to project their own political power which consists of only words. There is nothing inherently worse in the way the US does so.

JM

And I wasn't pro-Iraq. I didn't mind it as long as it was done competently (which it was not, but then that was an internal issue). I was pro-Afghanistan, but we should have been competent there as well (which was once more an internal issue, not caused by our decision to go into Afghanistan). I do blame the wars for part of the debt, Republicans who voted to have the wars should have also voted to raise the taxes to pay for them. This is once more an internal issue.

[Jon Miller]

I am still shocked out how, even europeans who wish to move to the US and have visited there, think it is a heavily racist/unenlightened/etc country.

There are still racists in america. In many states I expect similar levels as in Sweden (with many of the racists not admitting that they are).

Yes, Americans don't give health care to everyone/etc. While I do favor systems where health care is provided to everyone, a capitalistic system (With state support for the poor) could work well. The current craziness comes from a number of half measures.

JM

[Kitschum]

There is nothing wrong about feeling proud about your country.

Not if you're moderate about it.

There is nothing wrong with using your position in the world to further your own interests in the world. It would be a waste and an abdication of responsibility to not do so.

If, as might be the case, your interests do not perfectly coalesce with others, let's hypothesize, then I think it fair to think it might seem "wrong" to some of them at least. I think it reasonable to accept this as a possibility.

The problems in the US are all internal ones. The Patriot Act, the atrocious prison systems, the recent political brinkmanship to name three obvious ones. All are pretty unrelated to how we interact with the rest of the world.

The Patriot Act was a consequence of 9/11, no? The bloated defense budget is not entirelly internally conditioned either, if we assume that's a part in US indebtedness.

And I know that europeans love to condemn the US for this, but that is just their way to project their own political power which consists of only words. There is nothing inherently worse in the way the US does so.

And I wasn't pro-Iraq. I didn't mind it as long as it was done competently (which it was not, but then that was an internal issue).

You didn't mind if Iraqis were worse off as long as Americans weren't?

[Jon Miller]

This is speaking as a person who would probably choose to live in Sweden over the US, btw.

I prefer the cities, I prefer the education/health/social systems, I prefer the greater focus on vacation/etc.

JM

[Kitschum]

This is speaking as a person who would probably choose to live in Sweden over the US, btw.

I prefer the cities, I prefer the education/health/social systems, I prefer the greater focus on vacation/etc.

JM

That's fine. There are Swedes who prefer America's way of doing things. More individualism, more freedom, whatever. I was mostly thinking of foreign policy when I put the question.

[Jon Miller]

You didn't mind if Iraqis were worse off as long as Americans weren't?

Even with American incompetence, which I did not expect how great it would be, it is unclear to me that Iraqis now are really worse off than they were under Saddam.

The Patriot Act was caused by 9/11 and by internal factors. We could have made a different choice there, unfortunately we didn't. Considering all the places which get hit by terrorists, and react to them in different ways (good as Norway appears to, or perhaps badly (but not as badly as the Patriot Act) as Spain did), I don't think we can really blame the Patriot Act on 9/11.

JM

[Jon Miller]

I do think of one foreign policy place (last 20 years) that America should be ashamed about and was completely terrible, that is Gitmo and similar issues.

JM

[Riesstiu IV]

The United States should be ashamed of its foreign policy for the last 60 years.

[Jon Miller]

A serious problem? No.

There are some specific problems (most of them related to the cold war), but we are talking about in general.

JM

[Kitschum]

Even with American incompetence, which I did not expect how great it would be, it is unclear to me that Iraqis now are really worse off than they were under Saddam.

I disagree because surely the people who would have been alive (not killed by the coalition or the insurgents, directly or indirectly) might have preferred Saddam, but I guess in a way it remains to be seen what happens to that unfortunate country.

I can appreciate your opinion on Iraq, because it is similar to what I thought when I (once) supported the war on the Taliban in Afghanistan. I thought it'd get better. It didn't, really. End result still unclear.

Interesting to hear you talk about this, Jon. I can't remember if you've talked about this here before.

[Jon Miller]

Yeah, after the lack of competence in Iraq and Afghanistan I have been a fan of making as quick of a responsible retreat as possible.

I think it has been a couple of years since I gave my opinion on US foreign policy.

JM

[Jon Miller]

Kitschum, what do you think of trade, diplomacy, media and all the other tools that governments and countries use to further their own interests in the world (and the position of the groups/people who put them in power)?

I would say that some of the economic/trade actions that the european union has made as caused as much harm to people (in different parts of the world) as the Iraq war did.... (same with the US too, I am not saying we don't do this)

JM