Thread in which the world laughs at America

[Elok]

This might not be the right thread for this, but hey they're all ultimately about the same thing so:

To be honest, the idea that Republican intransigence on taxes is unreasonable completely ignores the fact that the only taxes that were ever laid on the table were completely irrelevant to the deficit. The reality is that the democrats don't want to raise taxes enough to fix the deficit, and they don't want to cut spending, either.

While I'm all for a serious discussion of the deficit, and I know the recent "compromise" accomplished nothing long-term, they were talking about allowing the US to default on its debt, FFS. Just about the only scenario I can envision that would justify that is something akin to the plot of "Armageddon." That was not the case. They were saying, in essence, "stop destroying the dollar slowly or we'll destroy it right now, and sodomize the world economy with a drill press to boot." That's crazy-person talk.

[OzzyKP]

It seems that despite the ample GOP craziness, the fault for the lack of a big deal is with the Dems. The sequence of events, as far as I understand them, went like this.

1. GOP said no revenue, no how, no way, not going to happen.
2. Endless back and forth and negotiations and horse trading.
3. Obama put a deal on the table for $800 billion in additional revenue (kill some loopholes) and $4 trillionish of spending cuts.
4a. Speaker Boehner said yes. (a significant and remarkable step considering the intransigence of the House GOP)
4b. At about the same time, the Gang of Six agreed to a package with like $1.2T in revenue.
5. Obama, seeing an opening to get even more revenue than the $800 billion he just proposed, then told Boehner he was changing the deal and wanted $1.2T in revenue.
6. Boehner said no.

Again, from what I understand, if Obama had just stuck to the offer he and Boehner had initially agreed on, and not changed it to demand more, then we wouldn't be in this mess.

[Asher]

Asher is a moron; don't listen to him. Some large investors (like pension funds) are required to hold AAA securities.

What's your point?

Many people only own AAA securities, too. Frankly, anyone who listens to analysts or credit ratings companies are idiots. They're all just bull****ting and making educated guesses.

Doesn't change the fact that the point of the downgrade was to scare America into shaping up its debt problem. S&P (probably) didn't downgrade it so pension funds would have to sell.

[Elok]

Asher is a moron; don't listen to him. Some large investors (like pension funds) are required to hold AAA securities.

Interesting. Do they go with S&P's rating, or Moody's? Both? Either? Or does it vary from contract to contract? In any case, such rules don't apply to the U.S. Government--or so I assume--so my point stands. EDIT: Whoops! I totally misunderstood you, you meant such companies can't buy US debt now.

Also, I understand there's currently a substantially scarier and more esoteric monetary fustercluck going on in the Euro zone right now, which we ignore over here because it involves Greeks and sundry other foreigners. Could that possibly have something to do with the present stock market blues? Failing that, I'd expect the fear to be aftershocks from the budget fiasco rather than a reaction to the S&P rating per se.

[Asher]

It seems that despite the ample GOP craziness, the fault for the lack of a big deal is with the Dems. The sequence of events, as far as I understand them, went like this.

1. GOP said no revenue, no how, no way, not going to happen.

There's your problem right there. Step 1: GOP refuses to be sane and reasonable.

Then you still blame the Dems.

[Asher]

This might not be the right thread for this, but hey they're all ultimately about the same thing so:

To be honest, the idea that Republican intransigence on taxes is unreasonable completely ignores the fact that the only taxes that were ever laid on the table were completely irrelevant to the deficit.

All taxes and potential income are relevant to the deficit...

The reality is that the democrats don't want to raise taxes enough to fix the deficit, and they don't want to cut spending, either.

No, the republicans don't want to raise taxes and only want to rape old women and children.

This is a fun game.

[Tupac Shakur]

What's your point?

Elok asked what real-world difference the downgrade would cause. You gave a flippant and stupid answer. I gave a real one.

Interesting. Do they go with S&P's rating, or Moody's? Both? Either? Or does it vary from contract to contract?

It varies. KH and I briefly touched on the subject earlier in this thread, and his point about US Treasuries being the preferred collateral for over-the-counter transactions is another good example of potential real-world consequences of the downgrade.

http://apolyton.net/showthread.php/196711-Thread-in-which-the-world-laughs-at-America?p=6003414&viewfull=1#post6003414

Whoops! I totally misunderstood you, you meant such companies can't buy US debt now.

I said "hold" AAA debt, which means some investors may be required to sell the US debt they already have in addition to not buying more.

Also, I understand there's currently a substantially scarier and more esoteric monetary fustercluck going on in the Euro zone right now

There's nothing esoteric about it. Many European countries are even more debt-ridden and screwed than the United States.

[OzzyKP]

There's your problem right there. Step 1: GOP refuses to be sane and reasonable.

Then you still blame the Dems.

Good job on reading comprehension.

Sorry if six whole bullet points is too much for you to read. I know it is an awful lot of words. Some of them big ones.

[Asher]

Elok asked what real-world difference the downgrade would make. You gave a flippant and stupid answer. I gave a real one.

You gave a very specific example, not a real answer. I gave the root difference.

The reason many pension funds only own AAA securities is because non-AAA scares them.

[Hauldren Collider]

Asher clearly has nothing to contribute. He's been wonderfully ben-like.

[Asher]

Good job on reading comprehension.

Sorry if 6 whole bullet points is too much for you to read. I know it is an awful lot of words. Some of them big ones.

I read the rest of your bullet points and comprehended them just fine. You just started with the GOP having the most arrogant, absurd, and ridiculous position to take when facing a massive deficit, then blamed the Dems for everything.

That set the stage for everything.

[Asher]

Asher clearly has nothing to contribute. He's been wonderfully ben-like.

Some day you'll learn that other viewpoints that happen to be contrary to your ill-formed viewpoints are valuable.

[OzzyKP]

I read the rest of your bullet points and comprehended them just fine. You just started with the GOP having the most arrogant, absurd, and ridiculous position to take when facing a massive deficit, then blamed the Dems for everything.

That set the stage for everything.

Yes, they started out with an arrogant, absurd and ridiculous position. BUT THEY AGREED TO A SANE COMPROMISE.

Even after their high opening offer they agreed to what, for them, was a huge amount of revenue. After getting that huge concession from them Obama pulled the rug out from underneath them and demanded more.

[Hauldren Collider]

Some day you'll learn that other viewpoints that happen to be contrary to your ill-formed viewpoints are valuable.

Dude, you've said things that are false and/or misinformed several times already, and THAT'S why you have nothing to contribute. It has nothing to do with whether your viewpoint meshes with mine or not.

[Asher]

Frankly, the ineptitude of the US government and the blind support of GOP loyalists go a long way to explaining how ****ed up the US is.

Maybe you should listen to me. I live in a country with a AAA credit rating. We can teach you guys a thing or two...