The case for polygamy

[Jon Miller]

So I have read of a lot of cases where there were 4 or 6 or whatever adults in a polygamous relationship, and they ended up splitting up into pairs after a few years...

The open view was an ideal of the 60s (And lesser extant 20s), and failed.

The mind is a powerful thing though, you probably still have some people insisting it is best for them while being miserable inside (I know people like this).

JM

[Pax]

Jews/traditional Christians/Muslims/Mormons have a history of polygamy and all four have been very powerful and the first three shaped the culture that we have today. Now, we even have two mormons running for president. I'm not very versed in the bible but it seems to be that the concept of one man/one woman marriage may be a greek/roman custom vice a JudeoChristian one. I have never even heard anyone use a biblical qoute that specifies you should only marry one woman. And of course, lots of people in the bible had multiple wives.

[Pax]

IMHO, the bible was more against masturbation and homosexuality as a survival mechanism. So now that we the JudeoChristian world are not in survival mode we are accepting of masturbation, we are accepting of homosexuality so why not be accepting of polygamy.
The other thing is that if I were a Mormon that was strongly against gay marriage, I would be outraged that gays would be allowed to marry but I still am not allowed to practice something my faith teaches.
Marriage should be define as being between two or more individuals.

[Jon Miller]

It was generally shown as negative in the Bible to have multiple wives, and never shown positively. Think of Abraham and Solomon and David and Isaac and Jacob and I could go on.

That does not say that the Bible does not allow more than one wife. Nor does it not allow more than one husband.

As with most things that aren't "love thy God" and "love fellow man" it is about better living and not a sin.

I don't think it is wise to have more than one wife or more than one husband, but I don't think (as a Christian) that it is a sin.

While there are old testament verses to support marriage being between two people, the new testament is pretty clear:

1 Timothy 3
2 The bishop therefore must be without reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, orderly, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
12 Let deacons be husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

I want to be clear that I am not against polygamy for religious reasons.

JM

[Pax]

The new testament was written in Roman times.

Solomon was wise and had multiple wives. David was gods' favorite. Isaac/Abraham the father of nations through gods blessings. God blessed Jacob many times over. Even when Laban kept changing the terms of an agreement with Jacob, god made sure that jacobs' flock prospered. The men that you spoke of all went through a certain amount of trials but in the bible they were blessed. Some would argue blessed with many wives.

There are many more examples in the bible and outside where a one man/one woman group was bad. Let's start with Adam and Eve. If Adam had one more person in that group too advise him not to eat the apple.

[Jon Miller]

The new testament was written in Roman times.

Solomon was wise and had multiple wives.

And the Bible makes clear that the multiple wives were Solomon's undoing.

That was my point about reading the stories of the old testament, which shows polygamous relationships... but hurt/etc coming from the polygamous aspect of them.

JM

[Pax]

Jon, as I said, I'm not a biblical expert so I can't dispute that(Solomon). What I can say is that the bible does not show that every multiple wife marriage ended in disaster or the man was undone by it so it does not follow that one case out of many would be enough proof.

[notyoueither]

So I have read of a lot of cases where there were 4 or 6 or whatever adults in a polygamous relationship, and they ended up splitting up into pairs after a few years...

The open view was an ideal of the 60s (And lesser extant 20s), and failed.

The mind is a powerful thing though, you probably still have some people insisting it is best for them while being miserable inside (I know people like this).

JM

More than anecdotes would be helpful, Jon.

Here's something you may want to look at.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_at_Dawn

Summary

The authors argue that human beings evolved in egalitarian hunter-gatherer bands in which sexual interaction was a shared resource, much like food, child care, group defense, and so on. In this, they agree to a degree with the work of Lewis H. Morgan who proposed in the 19th century that pre-agricultural humans lived in "primal hordes" in which property and paternity was communal. Though Darwin disagreed with Morgan's thesis, believing "pre-civilized" humans to have been polygynous (like gorillas), he respected Morgan's scholarship greatly.

They believe that much of evolutionary psychology has been conducted with a bias regarding human sexuality. They believe that the public and many researchers are guilty of the "Flintstonization" of hunter-gatherer society; that is to say projecting modern assumptions and beliefs onto earlier societies. Thus they believe there has been a bias to assuming that our species is primarily monogamous despite evidence to the contrary. They believe for example, that our sexual dimorphism, testicle size, female copulatory vocalization, appetite for sexual novelty, various cultural practices, and hidden female ovulation, among other factors strongly suggest a non-monogamous, non-polygynous history. Thus, the authors argue, mate selection was not the subject of much intragroup competition in pre-agricultural humans as sex was neither scarce nor commodified, rather sperm competition was a more important paternity factor than sexual selection.

[Jon Miller]

The new testament was written in Roman times.

Solomon was wise and had multiple wives. David was gods' favorite. Isaac/Abraham the father of nations through gods blessings. God blessed Jacob many times over. Even when Laban kept changing the terms of an agreement with Jacob, god made sure that jacobs' flock prospered. The men that you spoke of all went through a certain amount of trials but in the bible they were blessed. Some would argue blessed with many wives.

There are many more examples in the bible and outside where a one man/one woman group was bad. Let's start with Adam and Eve. If Adam had one more person in that group too advise him not to eat the apple.

They were all blessed/loved by God. But look at the stories, they got a lot of grief from having more than one wife.

JM

[Berzerker]

I am not going to accept you cramming your beliefs down my throat, and so will voice my beliefs and hope that others agree with me.

but...


but...


isnt that what you're doing? Using force to make everyone obey your belief? The polygamist aint cramming their beliefs down your throat, they're asking that you not do that to them.

Mike is right, and citing coerced or forced "marriages" as a reason to deny everyone else the freedom to marry is illogical (and worse).
Would you point to the Crusades or Inquisition to ban Christianity?

[Al B. Sure!]

They were all blessed/loved by God. But look at the stories, they got a lot of grief from having more than one wife.

JM

How is your argument not from a religious standpoint when you keep bringing up religion and the bible, jon?

In my mind, the issue with a polygamous relationship is one of psychology; is there coercion? Are all partners psychologically healthy and making a reasoned decision? It is too easy to see how someone with low self-esteem and an obsessive desire to be with someone, even as a 2nd or 3rd or whatever, could result in that person voluntarily entering into a polygamous marriage but it still not being in their best interests...

of course, that applies to all marriages, as well. There is nothing unique in that situation for a polygamous marriage. As long as the opportunity exists, through divorce, to leave such a marriage, then that mitigates some of that risk.

[C0ckney]

i don't see anything wrong with it in principle, whatever works for people is ok by me. however, like flubber i have concerns about the practicalities of dealing with polygamous marriages, divorces etc. i'm not sure the state should be getting involved in that.

[Al B. Sure!]

Would it really be that complicated though? One party wants out, that party gets out. I guess maybe if you have a 5-way marriage and one person just wants to be with another person, but not the other 3, but that other person still wants to be in the 5-way marriage...

so like A, B, C, and D are all married with each other but D is also married with E who is not married to A, B, and C.


Ehh... it's less complicated when there's only one husband or only one wife and the rest are wives or husbands.

[Berzerker]

if polygamy is illegal, how do you protect the women who want out of that relationship? If its legal, they can file in court for divorce and actually get some property/money.

[Ming]

So I have read of a lot of cases where there were 4 or 6 or whatever adults in a polygamous relationship, and they ended up splitting up into pairs after a few years...

Yeah... and 50% of "traditional" marriages end in divorce... Doesn't seem like much of a success story to me...

The open view was an ideal of the 60s (And lesser extant 20s), and failed.

It seems like the current "view" has failed as well

The mind is a powerful thing though, you probably still have some people insisting it is best for them while being miserable inside (I know people like this).
JM

And I know a bunch of people who are in traditional marriages that are miserable inside, but keep insisting it's best for them... so what's your point?

Some relationships succeed and others fail... that's reality.
And right now, with about half of all traditional marriages failing, it's really hard for any reasonable person to make a case that it should be the only kind of relationship allowed.
Using your argument that since in "some cases you have read that there are problems" means they shouldn't be allowed, you should also be arguing that no kind of relationship should be allowed since there are major flaws with traditional marriages right now.

I say leave it up to consenting adults... let them choose what they want to make work.