Mormonism: is it a cult?

[Al B. Sure!]

Not necessarily. If he can see all possible futures, then he can be omniscient and still not know until after the event which choices are made.

It's like a chance board. You know what the distribution will look like after 17000 balls, but you don't know where the drop will go until it drops.

That's not what omniscience means.

[Lorizael]

It's like a chance board. You know what the distribution will look like after 17000 balls, but you don't know where the drop will go until it drops.

You cannot argue for logical limitations on omniscience. The omni part means there are no limitations. If you want to argue that he's not omniscient, and that he just knows a lot, that's fine, but good luck finding scripture to support that claim.

[Jon Miller]

To go a step further, this logical conundrum can easily be solved in one of five ways:

1) Admit that God is not omniscient.

2) Admit that God is not omnipotent.

3) Admit that evil is a part of God's plan.

4) Admit that humans do not have free will.

5) Admit that God is so omnipotent that logic does not apply to him.

You are awfully simplistic. Logic in complicated situations is not so simplistic.

I will try to be a bit simple here, as I don't want to write a book. But to explain it properly, I think you would need at least a long essay.

Let's take a parent. They have a growing child.

The child has a decision to make.

They are an adult, and hopefully have wisdom. They know what the best decision is.

They are the parent, they can force the child to make the right decision. But they don't, they want the child to learn and grow and choose. To have freedom.

So is it part of the parents plan for the child to make a bad decision? No. But the parent wants the child to have freedom. The freedom the child needs to be a separate individual and learn and grow.

So yes, evil is part of God's plan in that He knows that people will choose it. It is not part of His plan in that He desires people to choose it.

JM

[Jon Miller]

The problem comes when simplistic people say things like:

Free will is good.

Going on a murder rampage is evil.

If people have free will (which is good), they can go on a a murder rampage (which is evil). If free will, murder rampages will happen.

Oh no, there must not be good and evil! (or, oh no, murder rampages must not be evil!)

JM

[Lorizael]

What you're saying doesn't refute what I'm saying, JM. It's simply an explanation as to why evil is a part of God's plan. That's fine. But if you want to argue that evil is not a part of God's plan, then you must place limitations on his omniscience, omnipotence, or on our free will; or you must remove all limitations on omnipotence.

[giblets]

I don't have the desire to go on a murderous rampage, and presumably I have free will. Why couldn't God make it so that everybody has free will but nobody has the desire to go on a murderous rampage?

[Jon Miller]

Because then people wouldn't have free will.

You choose not to go on a murderous rampage.

JM

[Jon Miller]

In the myth of Genesis (not saying anything about it being literal or not, but about the story), it was the choice of pride which led to murder... and so to murderous rampages.

JM

[Lorizael]

I don't have the desire to go on a murderous rampage, and presumably I have free will. Why couldn't God make it so that everybody has free will but nobody has the desire to go on a murderous rampage?

It's not God's fault you don't fully exercise your free will.

[giblets]

Because then people wouldn't have free will.

You choose not to go on a murderous rampage.

JM

But I'm guessing quite a few of the people who have gone on murderous rampages had a strong desire to kill people that made them more likely to do so, and I don't have any such desire.

[Jon Miller]

If God changes your desires (without your request), it isn't free will.

JM

[giblets]

So, you're saying if someone has mental problems and ends up going on a murderous rampage, it's because that's how they chose to be and they should have asked God to get rid of their mental problems?

[Jon Miller]

Sure, at some point far before they went on the murderous rampage. (And God's solution might have included drugs and a doctor)

People do have choices, even ones who are mentally disabled/etc.

Even ones who are depressed (to link it to another thread). You can make choices which will make you more depressed, or ones that will make you less depressed. A life of pain and suicide doesn't have to be your future.

Or someone who is mentally unstable, can make choices that will lead to more mental stability or less.

I do think we have freewill. If you want to argue that we don't have freewill... do it with someone else.

JM

[giblets]

I'm asking why people with free will need to find bad things desirable. If homosexuality is evil why do some people have same sex attraction. Don't people with heterosexual attraction have just as much free will?

[Jon Miller]

You don't read much of what I write, do you?

JM