Policeman Raped in UK

[Wezil]

I guess your opening question needs to be answered then. How does he define it?



I have some issue with this:

Not sure about anyone else, but I am certainly not arguing for non-consensual sex. I'm just saying that we have to take responsibility for what we drink - and the consequences.

It's very blame the victim-ish.

[Wezil]

NYE - Your scenario does not meet my definition of "drunk".

[Wezil]

Revised:

You have been dating someone and go out for the evening. You are driving so you only have a glass of wine with dinner. They have many glasses of wine through the evening. They are incapable of any further dancing when they invite you to their place.

You get to their place and they are unstable on their feet and rambling incoherently. They take you by whatever they can grab and lead you into the bedroom before falling into bed half asleep.

That would be drunk.

[Cort Haus]

I guess your opening question needs to be answered then. How does he define it?



I have some issue with this:



It's very blame the victim-ish.

I'm not blaming any victims. There is a line beyond which people don't know what is happening, and yes, they certainly shouldn't be taken advantage of. I'm referring to a potential scenario where anyone that had more than two drinks would be considered, like a child, incapable of exercising judgement. Even a completely sober person might regret a decision to go to bed with someone. Giving someone a chance to reverse a consenting decision because they'd had a drink but were otherwise in control opens up a can of worms though.

I suppose this to a large extent depends on how 'drunk' is defined.

[Wezil]

Most rapes are committed by people known to the victim. As these are the people the victim is most likely to trust it seems likely they would be the perfect people to get drunk with. It by no way means they consent to sex.

[Jon Miller]

If you aren't sober enough to drive, than you aren't sober enough to give consent.

Note that the particular example is modified by the 'dating'. I do think that there is such a thing as 'prior consent' where consent is given ahead of time (but can be actively withdrawn).

Prior consent still is still giving consent. I don't have a problem with prior consent, I have a problem with assuming that consent is given.

Consent is given, consent is not assumed to be given and requiring active repudiation.

Dating where you usually go and have sex might be a case of prior consent. The consent took place when both parties were sober.

The 'if drunk it is OK' is what leads to so many date rapes/etc. It can feel very much like an assault, but many people (Especially men) think it is OK.

JM
(I am well aware that girls/guys like to have sex drunk/etc. I am just saying, if you care about sex being consensual, then you shouldn't have sex with someone who is drunk who you don't have a 'prior consent' situation with.)

[Wezil]

I agree with most all of that except (of course) where you draw the line.

Legal driving limit? Really?

[Wezil]

nm

[notyoueither]

If you aren't sober enough to drive, than you aren't sober enough to give consent.

This concept of consent infantilises adults. I think it is ridiculous and leads to reasonable people having a hard time accepting your (and my) position about the importance of consent.

Note that the particular example is modified by the 'dating'. I do think that there is such a thing as 'prior consent' where consent is given ahead of time (but can be actively withdrawn).

How about after an evening of drinking an attractive acquaintance invites themselves to your home and into your bed?

That person obviously should not drive, but your standard of the effect of inebriation on consent is simply not acceptable to me even though I am an advocate for the idea in general.

Prior consent still is still giving consent. I don't have a problem with prior consent, I have a problem with assuming that consent is given.

Consent is given, consent is not assumed to be given and requiring active repudiation.

Dating where you usually go and have sex might be a case of prior consent. The consent took place when both parties were sober.

I also find this attempt to categorise conditions of consent problematic.

I don't think it is ever possible to assume consent because it was given before. The conditions of that person may have changed and they may not feel comfortable discussing it with people they've been a partner with in the past, or even people they are married to.

I think the proper standard is something to the effect of if the person is able to be an active or entusiastic participant. Something along those lines.

The 'if drunk it is OK' is what leads to so many date rapes/etc. It can feel very much like an assault, but many people (Especially men) think it is OK.

JM
(I am well aware that girls/guys like to have sex drunk/etc. I am just saying, if you care about sex being consensual, then you shouldn't have sex with someone who is drunk who you don't have a 'prior consent' situation with.)

I agree there is a problem with 'if drunk then OK', but I think the ideas about consent need to be sharper and not infantilising adults in order to be more broadly accepted.

If they are conscious, and if they are active, and if they are adult, then they should be deemed to be capable of consent.

[Wezil]

I don't think it is ever possible to assume consent because it was given before. The conditions of that person may have changed and they may not feel comfortable discussing it with people they've been a partner with in the past, or even people they are married to.

There is a case on just this issue currently making its way through the Appeal courts.

It was newsworthy a few months ago but I can't seem to recall the case name now.

[Wezil]

The legal limit threshold would be convenient.

Dudes would carry portable breathalyzers with them with little paper printouts showing time and results of test before engaging in worry free consensual sex.

[Cort Haus]

If you aren't sober enough to drive, than you aren't sober enough to give consent.

So anyone having sex after one and a half pints is either being raped, a rapist, or both?

Sorry, that sounds absurd to me.

[Provost Harrison]

He should just be grateful that he didn't end up face down floating in Michael Barrymore's swimming pool

[Provost Harrison]

A bunch of men "sharing a bottle of wine over a meal"...oh pull the other one.

[notyoueither]

Revised:

You have been dating someone and go out for the evening. You are driving so you only have a glass of wine with dinner. They have many glasses of wine through the evening. They are incapable of any further dancing when they invite you to their place.

You get to their place and they are unstable on their feet and rambling incoherently. They take you by whatever they can grab and lead you into the bedroom before falling into bed half asleep.

That would be drunk.

That is too drunk, yes.