Policeman Raped in UK

[OneFootInTheGrave]

prove that you had sex without consent... in that case the person should take on board the responsibility of getting to the point of "no control" voluntarily in the first place... after all even though you may claim "no control" - noone can really prove whether you were after screwing your accidental partner or not.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

in other words: if you want to claim rape, you better say it was against your consent while you were "under control", and hope you can prove it in court. Main reason why rape is such a difficult crime for the real victims, and for the system.

so yes, this case above should not really fall under "rape"... still it is an interesting story

[Cort Haus]

JM, the trouble with the drunk=no consent argument is that someone who has a few regrets in the morning can suddenly cry rape over something they actually consented to. False rape claims are very serious, and also, if alcohol=no consent this means a ban on drunken sex which is a heavy blow to individual liberty, and responsibility.

[Jon Miller]

Well, I have tried to use non-consentual instead of rape.

In my mind there is a difference, sort of like there is a difference between statutory rape and rape.

JM

[Jon Miller]

What's wrong with holding to the position that consent has to be provided/expressed before sex?

Why should a lack of consent have to be expressed (while the person is capable of giving consent) for the sex to be nonconsensual?

I don't go around telling people that I don't want to have sex with them. I do have drinks (not so many now, but I do occasionally get drunk, I have gotten drunk more regularly before) without telling everyone I am near that I don't consent to having sex with them.

I think your positions are crazy and wrong.

non-consentual sex in it's violent and non-violent forms

JM

[Cort Haus]

Not sure about anyone else, but I am certainly not arguing for non-consensual sex. I'm just saying that we have to take responsibility for what we drink - and the consequences.

[Jon Miller]

Which apparently includes non-consentual sex...

JM

[notyoueither]

in other words: if you want to claim rape, you better say it was against your consent while you were "under control", and hope you can prove it in court. Main reason why rape is such a difficult crime for the real victims, and for the system.

so yes, this case above should not really fall under "rape"... still it is an interesting story

In this case the person was asleep. You need to be conscious to consent, yes?

[notyoueither]

Which apparently includes non-consentual sex...

JM

I largely agree with you re consent, but I think you push it too far by saying that people who are drunk cannot consent.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I'm more in line with Jon here. If you are smashed you really can't consent. Slightly tipsy, you could.

[Wezil]

Yeah! ****ing a drunk chick. Now that's what I call fun.

Extra bonus if she pukes on the sheets.

[notyoueither]

What is drunk?

A photo of a person with no clothes on may be porn or it may be art. The context and the situation are needed to say.

[notyoueither]

or are some people infants?

You have been dating someone and go out for the evening. You are driving so you only have a glass of wine with dinner. They have many glasses of wine through the evening. They are still dancing when they invite you to their place.

You get to their place and they are walking without assistance and speaking coherently. They take you by the hand and lead you into the bedroom and are taking off their clothes. Are they an infant? Are they incapable of consent?

[Wezil]

I'm not sure what you are disputing? I think we mostly agree (including yourself) that there is a line somewhere. Your initial question ("What is drunk?") is the the real issue and you answered it in the last line of the same post.

[notyoueither]

I'm elaborating on why I am questioning Jon's assertion that a drunken state precludes consent.