Wisconsin Takes A Stand For Fiscal Sanity

[DaShi]

Unions are supposed to represent their member's interests. Are you really complaining because they don't represent other people's interests? Personally, I see a lot of good which unions have brought about which has trickled down to even no union members. Things like paid sick leave, a 40 hour work week, getting a weekend off, over time pay, etc...

For DD, it's perfectly alright for people like the Koch brothers to buy political influence, but if workers join together to use their assets to support their agendas, it's a crime against America.

[Hauldren Collider]

What's so special about the fourth one? You could just as easily claim that if coal miners don't like to die they are free to look for work somewhere else. Their desire for work safety is just greed

Compensation is known up front at the point of hiring. Sexual harassment doesn't generally show up on a job description . It's also criminal behavior. What you're saying is akin to saying "You should just find another job if you don't want your co-workers to murder you."

Workplace safety is something that I think only governments can (relatively) consistently judge and evaluate. If a private-sector ratings system for workplace safety were possible, I would consider the idea that things like OSHA are bad but since no such system exists (or as far as I can tell could exist)....

Why do I have to explain this to you?

[Hauldren Collider]

For DD, it's perfectly alright for people like the Koch brothers to buy political influence, but if workers join together to use their assets to support their agendas, it's a crime against America.

The difference is that in states lacking right-to-work laws, you are forced to join the union. No one forces you to invest in a corporation, and when you invest in a corporation you do so understanding that the corporation will express messages and agendas to its own advantage. You get a job to support yourself, not some douchebag union bosses.

Also Koch Industries is privately-held, what the owner of a business does with his revenues is up to him. I don't think labor union bosses own their union members, do they? That seems antithetical to the idea of a worker's union...

[giblets]

The difference is that in states lacking right-to-work laws, you are forced to join the union. No one forces you to invest in a corporation, and when you invest in a corporation you do so understanding that the corporation will express messages and agendas to its own advantage. You get a job to support yourself, not some douchebag union bosses.

Also Koch Industries is privately-held, what the owner of a business does with his revenues is up to him. I don't think labor union bosses own their union members, do they? That seems antithetical to the idea of a worker's union...

You aren't forced to join a union in any state. If you don't want to join a union, don't look for work at a union shop. Nobody is forced to get a job there.

[giblets]

Compensation is known up front at the point of hiring. Sexual harassment doesn't generally show up on a job description . It's also criminal behavior. What you're saying is akin to saying "You should just find another job if you don't want your co-workers to murder you."

Workplace safety is something that I think only governments can (relatively) consistently judge and evaluate. If a private-sector ratings system for workplace safety were possible, I would consider the idea that things like OSHA are bad but since no such system exists (or as far as I can tell could exist)....

Why do I have to explain this to you?

I'm still wondering how asking for more safety in the workplace than the market level escapes your definition of greed.

[DaShi]

Also Koch Industries is privately-held, what the owner of a business does with his revenues is up to him. I don't think labor union bosses own their union members, do they? That seems antithetical to the idea of a worker's union...

So a corporation can bribe a governor or, say, a Supreme Court judge and that's ok?

Also, labor union bosses are elected to represent the workers. Now I'm seriously doubting that you know anything about unions other that what is fed to you by Fox news.

[Egbert]

So a corporation can bribe a governor or, say, a Supreme Court judge and that's ok?

Also, labor union bosses are elected to represent the workers. Now I'm seriously doubting that you know anything about unions other that what is fed to you by Fox news.

Leave it to the "market".
If there is a demand for bribes then the market will supply bribes.

Mustn't interfere with the market.

The "market".

[MRT144]

The difference is that in states lacking right-to-work laws, you are forced to join the union. No one forces you to invest in a corporation, and when you invest in a corporation you do so understanding that the corporation will express messages and agendas to its own advantage. You get a job to support yourself, not some douchebag union bosses.

Also Koch Industries is privately-held, what the owner of a business does with his revenues is up to him. I don't think labor union bosses own their union members, do they? That seems antithetical to the idea of a worker's union...

Joining a union is like investing in a co-operative that fights for you in different ways.

[KrazyHorse]

No, it's not. A union is a monopoly provider of labor to a given workplace. Depending on the jurisdiction it restricts more or less effectively the ability of outsiders to compete with members in providing labor. If unions were not able to restrict the ability of the workplace and other individuals to enter into bilateral labor agreements then the union would be singularly ineffective.

[Hauldren Collider]

So a corporation can bribe a governor or, say, a Supreme Court judge and that's ok?

Also, labor union bosses are elected to represent the workers. Now I'm seriously doubting that you know anything about unions other that what is fed to you by Fox news.

I'm sorry, what? Where did I say bribes were okay? Political ads are not bribes.

[DaShi]

No, it's not. A union is a monopoly provider of labor to a given workplace. Depending on the jurisdiction it restricts more or less effectively the ability of outsiders to compete with members in providing labor. If unions were not able to restrict the ability of the workplace and other individuals to enter into bilateral labor agreements then the union would be singularly ineffective.

Couldn't you basically say the same thing about an employer or management?

[KrazyHorse]

Management is able to tell current/prospective employees that they aren't able to take another job elsewhere????

In other words, don't be silly...

[DaShi]

I see your point. On this, I do agree it is a problem. But what other leverage do employers have to ensure fair wages, treatment, and benefits?

[Wezil]

Sorry gribbler - Life intervened.

Oerdin claimed (among other things)

Lastly, the bill would require a vote every year to recertify the union and if 50% plus one vote not to certify then the union would be forced to disband at that work place.

To which you responded:

I didn't see any of that in their campaign platform.

I actually don't need to go any further into the document as s.16 does indeed cover that. Right at the bottom.

E. Opposes the “Card Check”/Employee Free Choice Act.

Some of it was obviously there.

edit - spelin

[Wezil]

Some folks are saying public workers shouldn't have the right to unionize and collectively bargain but just as a matter of logical consistency why shouldn't all workers have the same rights? Who employs them shouldn't matter so just make sure all workers have the same rights, including the rights to unionize and collectively bargain, and be done with it.

This disregards the power imbalance between private and public sector unions.