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Noble Lies

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  • Noble Lies

    [or so the liar seems to believe]



    LONDON — An Iraqi defector who went by the codename “Curveball” has publicly admitted for the first time that he made up stories about mobile bioweapons trucks and secret factories to try to bring down Saddam Hussein’s regime.

    "I had a problem with the Saddam regime," Rafid Ahmed Alwan al-Janabi, who fled Iraq in 1995, told The Guardian newspaper. "I wanted to get rid of him and now I had this chance."

    Al-Janabi’s information was used in part by the U.S. as justification for the invasion of Iraq in March 2003. More than 100,000 people, most of them Iraqi civilians, have died in the war. The U.S. began to withdraw its troops from Iraq last summer.

    Janabi said he was comfortable with what he did, despite the war that ensued.

    *snip*

    The Iraqi engineer said the BND, the German secret service, approached him in March 2000 looking for inside information about Saddam's Iraq.

    He said he had told a German official about the existence of mobile bioweapons trucks throughout 2000.

    The BND traveled to a Gulf city, believed to be Dubai, to speak with his former boss at the Military Industries Commission in Iraq, Dr. Bassil Latif.

    Latif strongly denied al-Janabi's claim of mobile bioweapons trucks and another allegation that 12 people had died during an accident at a secret bioweapons facility in Baghdad, according to the Guardian.

    German officials confronted al-Janabi with his boss’s denial and did not contact him again until the end of May 2002, al-Janabi told the Guardian. Despite his earlier disputed statements, al-Janabi said, Gerrman and U.S. authorities continued to take him seriously.

    He said he was not asked again about the bioweapons trucks until a month before Powell's speech.

    "I tell you something when I hear anybody — not just in Iraq but in any war — [is] killed, I am very sad. But give me another solution. Can you give me another solution?" he told the Guardian.

    "Believe me, there was no other way to bring about freedom to Iraq. There were no other possibilities."

    Tyler Drumheller, the former head of the CIA in Europe, said Curveball's admission made him feel better about himself.

    Drumheller, who says he warned his superiors at the CIA before the 2003 invasion that Curveball might be a liar, said the confession would be a final wake-up call for those who continue to insist there had been weapons of mass destruction.

    "The interesting part for me is that he has recanted what he said, which is fascinating in the sense that I think there are still a number of people who still thought there was something in that. Even now," Drumheller told the Guardian.
    This, to me, means two things:

    1) The Bush Administration, while overly credulous and clearly not really interested in alternative viewpoints, did not create the lie.

    2) This puts the final nail in the "WMD" coffin. It was a lie (this has been clear for some time, but it's nice to have the confession). Our government bought it (IMO because that's the answer they wanted) and spread it to start a war.

    Beware people telling you things you want to hear...

    -Arrian
    grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

    The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

  • #2
    The words "criminal negligence" come to mind.
    "Ceterum censeo Ben esse expellendum."

    Comment


    • #3
      The problem with dictatorships is that one person makes choices for everyone else without first seeking everyone else's consent.
      Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
      "We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La Rochefoucauld

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by dannubis View Post
        The words "criminal negligence" come to mind.
        Indeed. "Confirmation bias" as well.

        -Arrian
        grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

        The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by dannubis View Post
          The words "criminal negligence" come to mind.
          Why are you surprised? Its rather common knowledge that the once vaunted abilities of the intelligence community to get reliable human intel has been degraded to virtually relying on news reports. (As was the case last week when the CIA director admitted his sources were news reports when prematurely predicting that Mubarak was stepping down) Practically speaking, the only ones in the human intel business worth their salt are the Israelis.
          "Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

          “In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter

          Comment


          • #6
            A problem, true. Of course, this guy was human intelligence. The Germans did check out his story w/another source and got a firm denial. That strikes me as good process. Then what? People who wanted the answer to be X believed the guy who asserted X, and discounted the guy who said Y.

            -Arrian
            grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

            The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

            Comment


            • #7
              Not knowing the details of the confirmatory source, what you say makes sense. If however the confirmatory source had motive to lie, say he was attached to the Iraqi regime, your back to square one.
              "Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

              “In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter

              Comment


              • #8
                Rafid Ahmed Alwan al-Janabi let imagination run wild and became main source for Colin Powell's case for war in 2003


                the BND had flown to Dubai to interview his former boss at Iraq's military industrial complex, Dr Basil Latif, who had told them that his former underling was a liar.

                Several British intelligence officers were present at the meeting with Latif. Their German counterparts left Dubai seeing their prized source in a new light.

                According to them, Curveball had claimed that Latif's son, who was then at school in Britain, was a procurer of WMD. That information was easily proven wrong by the British spooks.

                The BND then returned to Germany and sent an officer to confront their source. "He says 'there (are) no trucks' and I say, ok, when (Dr Basil says) there are no trucks then (there are none)," Curveball recalled in broken English. "I did not speak to them again until (the) end of May 2002."

                By the time the BND came calling again, Curveball says he had fended for himself for almost 18 months. He had been paid a monthly stipend by his handler, but had not been asked to do anything for the state.

                "When he come back to me, he don't ask me (the same questions)," he says of the 2002 meetings. "He ask me, for example, the name of signs, the name of establishment, do you know this person." He admitted continuing to lie to his interrogators throughout the year.

                Curveball suggests that the BND implied that his then-pregnant wife, who was at that point trying to get to Germany from Spain, would not be able to join him unless he co-operated. "He says, you work with us or your wife and child go to Morocco."

                According to his account, there were at least a dozen meetings in 2002. He says none of the new round of questions dealt with a birdseed purification plant, in Djerf al-Nadaf in south-east Baghdad, that he had claimed was where Saddam's bioweapons programme was based.

                This was supposed to be where the mobile trucks were loaded up. "The BND did not ask me about this project, because they knew I was not right."

                But in January 2003, several weeks before Powell's speech, the interrogation returned to trucks and birdseed. "That was the first time they had talked to me about this since 2000." Curveball says it was clear to him that the drums of war were beating ever louder, but he maintains that he still thought his story about the mobile trucks had been discounted.

                Then came the UN speech. He says the BND had told him that everything he had told them would stay in Germany and that he was shocked to see Powell holding up diagrams that he knew had been prepared from his fraudulent descriptions.

                "So I call the person that is responsible for me. I tell him that I see what Colin says, and he says 'ok, this ist ein klein', a small problem. You come ... tomorrow, and you speak with me. (He said) you must go now from this home because this flat is very dangerous for you and for your family. From 9 April you can return."

                For the next two months, Curveball claims he was in virtual lockdown, prevented by the BND from watching TV and having limited contact with anyone outside his hotel. He said he knew the war had begun from snatched conversations with strangers.

                Asked about how he felt as the bodycount among of countrymen mounted and Iraq descended into chaos, Curveball shifted uncomfortably in his chair, then said: "I tell you something when I hear anybody – not just in Iraq but in any war – (is) killed, I am very sad. But give me another solution. Can you give me another solution?

                "Believe me, there was no other way to bring about freedom to Iraq. There were no other possibilities."

                "Saddam did not [allow] freedom in our land. There are no other political parties. You have to believe what Saddam says, and do what Saddam wants. And I don't accept that. I have to do something for my country. So I did this and I am satisfied, because there is no dictator in Iraq any more."
                That gives a bit more detail.

                -Arrian
                grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Before 1 goes to war I feel the story should have been checked out 100 times. If the anwers to the inquieries are not overwhelmingly positive then something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

                  The truth of course is nobody cared. They wanted a war and this was just as good as the next excuse.
                  "Ceterum censeo Ben esse expellendum."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Get a grip. Bush was acting on the advice of advisors. Colin Powell was even convinced.
                    I know there will be Bush bashers that prefer the now familiar and comfortable position of having their heads up their ass, but the fact remains.
                    Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
                    "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
                    He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      It's pretty well documented that Bush wanted to invade Iraq after 9/11. So his wants, and his advisors' willingness to turn a blind eye to contradictory evidence, and Hussein's unwillingness to see the writing on the wall led to the deaths of a 100,000 people.
                      Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
                      "We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La Rochefoucauld

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hussein had to go, period. After he was gone, would you rather the country been abandoned immediately? I can see someone arguing for that perspective, although I would disagree.
                        Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
                        "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
                        He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Lorizael View Post
                          It's pretty well documented that Bush wanted to invade Iraq after 9/11. So his wants, and his advisors' willingness to turn a blind eye to contradictory evidence, and Hussein's unwillingness to see the writing on the wall led to the deaths of a 100,000 people.
                          Agreed. It was or should have been widely known that Bush's attempt to provide WMD justifications were done only for the benefit of providing the Brits cover. He was committed to the actions for a variety of reasons existence of WMD only important in as much as it provided the cover Blair said he needed. Given that, the liklihood of careful cross checking was rather unlikely.

                          That being said the Guardians second article still seems to have little to back up the 'pure unimpeachable' motives of Dr. Latif to tell the truth. When Curveball was confronted, an off hand "OK if ou say they aren't there, they aren't there" seems far from an admission of lying. Seems more to me like a sarcastic comment to me but it loses a lot without context.
                          "Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

                          “In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Prattle on.
                            Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
                            "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
                            He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The real question is that given the administrations predisposition to go to war in Iraq, was the intelligence community: cowed, incapable of validating intel, or simply incompetent. Likely all 3 given the performance post 2003.
                              "Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

                              “In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter

                              Comment

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