Noble Lies

[Lorizael]

Hussein had to go, period.

Do all dictators have to go, period? And is that our decision to make? And should we consult the one hundred thousand civilians that are going to die as a result of our decision before we do it? Remember, 100,000 people is ~33 September 11 attacks. Do we really have the right to inflict that on others because we've decided that a particular dictator "has to go?"

[dannubis]

Get a grip. Bush was acting on the advice of advisors. Colin Powell was even convinced.
I know there will be Bush bashers that prefer the now familiar and comfortable position of having their heads up their ass, but the fact remains.

The only fact that remains is that the Bush administration based its war on lies. Whether or not they did this deliberately is still open to debate, but sure as hell didn't do any cross checks.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

The only fact that remains is that the Bush administration based its war on lies. Whether or not they did this deliberately is still open to debate, but sure as hell didn't do any cross checks.

Authorization of use of force was predicated on a number of reasons. Existence of WMD's only a part. It has been the rallying point to say that if we had only known that WMD's were not there no invasion would have taken place. I am not sure that is the case. To say the war was based on lies discounts the other reasons given in the authorization of force.

[dannubis]

Which were ?

[Lorizael]

Well, there's the other lie that Hussein was involved in 9/11. Can't forget that.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Which were ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Resolution

[dannubis]

He also had Uranium from some ****hole in Africa

[dannubis]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Resolution

The only point on that list that isn't debunked is the fact that he was a murderous dictator. Nobody disputed that.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

The only point on that list that isn't debunked is the fact that he was a murderous dictator. Nobody disputed that.

From the list of factors listed:

1. Iraq's noncompliance with the conditions of the 1991 cease fire, including interference with weapons inspectors.

Finding was true

2. Iraq's alleged weapons of mass destruction, and programs to develop such weapons, posed a "threat to the national security of the United States and international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region."

Finding false

3. Iraq's "brutal repression of its civilian population."

Finding true

4. Iraq's "capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction against other nations and its own people".

Finding true

5. Iraq's hostility towards the United States as demonstrated by the alleged 1993 assassination attempt of former President George H. W. Bush, and firing on coalition aircraft enforcing the no-fly zones following the 1991 Gulf War.

Finding true

6. Members of al-Qaeda, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq.

Finding - Contended. Zarqawi was known to be in Iraq. The contention is that he was being hosted at Husseins bidding. This was later found to not be the case via the 911 comission findings. The statetement is technically true they were there. The implication is that they were requested to be there, found not to be true. Furthermore at the time of the 2002 authorization he had yet to declare hmself an AQ member despite his involvement with assasination of the US ambassador to Jordan.

7. Iraq's "continu[ing] to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations," including anti-United States terrorist organizations.
The efforts by the Congress and the President to fight terrorists, and those who aided or harbored them.

Finding - contended. Actually not really contended. Abbu Abbas and Abu Nidal were both hosted by the Iraq regime. The contentious issue is that AQ was not necessarily invited to have safe haven there. Earlier discussions apparently had been considered by Hussein but declined as he thought the presence of AQ would be too destabilizing to his power.

8. The authorization by the Constitution and the Congress for the President to fight anti-United States terrorism.

Finding true

9. Citing the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, the resolution reiterated that it should be the policy of the United States to remove the Saddam Hussein regime and promote a democratic replacement.

Finding - True

[Elok]

So, having already learned that the WMD allegation was bull**** in a hundred different ways, we've uncovered the hundred and first? Good to know, I guess.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

The issue at hand is who is to blame. The blood thirsty admin or the clueless intelligence organizations?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Well, there's the other lie that Hussein was involved in 9/11. Can't forget that.

Quote please?

[dannubis]

From the list of factors listed:
1. Iraq's noncompliance with the conditions of the 1991 cease fire, including interference with weapons inspectors.

Finding was true

Even though the weapons inspectors at that time didn't seem to think an attack was warranted: FAIL

2. Iraq's alleged weapons of mass destruction, and programs to develop such weapons, posed a "threat to the national security of the United States and international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region."

Finding false

3. Iraq's "brutal repression of its civilian population."

Finding true

4. Iraq's "capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction against other nations and its own people".

Finding true

Same as point 3 really: brutal dictator

5. Iraq's hostility towards the United States as demonstrated by the alleged 1993 assassination attempt of former President George H. W. Bush, and firing on coalition aircraft enforcing the no-fly zones following the 1991 Gulf War.

Finding true

The assassination attempt was proven ? The shooting at coalition planes was inviolation with the resolution on the no-fly zones. However at that point there was no international consensus anymore this resolution should be upheld.

6. Members of al-Qaeda, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq.

Finding - Contended. Zarqawi was known to be in Iraq. The contention is that he was being hosted at Husseins bidding. This was later found to not be the case via the 911 comission findings. The statetement is technically true they were there. The implication is that they were requested to be there, found not to be true. Furthermore at the time of the 2002 authorization he had yet to declare hmself an AQ member despite his involvement with assasination of the US ambassador to Jordan.

Very weak at best. I have yet to see conclusive evidence that Iraq was actively supporting Al Quaeda.

7. Iraq's "continu[ing] to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations," including anti-United States terrorist organizations.
The efforts by the Congress and the President to fight terrorists, and those who aided or harbored them.

Finding - contended. Actually not really contended. Abbu Abbas and Abu Nidal were both hosted by the Iraq regime. The contentious issue is that AQ was not necessarily invited to have safe haven there. Earlier discussions apparently had been considered by Hussein but declined as he thought the presence of AQ would be too destabilizing to his power.

US based criterion

8. The authorization by the Constitution and the Congress for the President to fight anti-United States terrorism.

Finding true

Who gives a **** about internal US policies ?

9. Citing the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, the resolution reiterated that it should be the policy of the United States to remove the Saddam Hussein regime and promote a democratic replacement.

Finding - True

Same as # 8.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Even though the weapons inspectors at that time didn't seem to think an attack was warranted: FAIL

You can't be seriously advocating that auditors are to provide enforcment decisions. This goes counter to the idea of independent auditing and enforcement. Policy makers/enforcement are to provide that function to prevent auditing conflicts of interest either pro or con towards the auditee. Corruption and /or personality conflicts differences are thus presumably minimized.

The assassination attempt was proven ?

To the extent that the conspirators confessed that they worked for the IIS and were found guilty in the Kuwaiti courts, yes.

The shooting at coalition planes was inviolation with the resolution on the no-fly zones. However at that point there was no international consensus anymore this resolution should be upheld.

How could there be "no consensus"? Was there a countermanding resolution eliminating the no-fly zone? Not that I am aware of. IIRC it was one of the points that was continually being referenced as a material breach of all existing resolutions at the time.

Very weak at best. I have yet to see conclusive evidence that Iraq was actively supporting Al Quaeda.

Wasn't the claim of the authorization of force resolution.

US based criterion

Those are typically used for US based decisions. Funny that.

Who gives a **** about internal US policies ?

Presumably US citizenry and US policy makers.

[germanos]

Quote please?

Just one. For the rest just google "saddam 9/11"

CNN

I deliberately have chosen this 2009 article for the after-the-fact view by Dick Cheney.