Free speech is dead in Europe: Eric Zemmour

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Have you ever broken the law, Hera? I have.

New topic- are stats in "solved" crimes driven by the type of people committing crimes, or are they more a reflection of where society goes looking for it?

[Kitschum]

I can post examples like this for most Western European countries. I'm pretty sure Scandinavia might have a few too. "Hate" speech legislation is very popular in Europe.

That's not what I meant. I was talking about the allegedly "European" alleged "city" of Malmö that allegedly "expelled" its alleged "Jews" with alleged "threats and violence".

It's odd that you decry "hate" speech legislation when most of the "crimes" against Jews in Malmö, which were the basis of the media outcry last year, are of that same nature.

[Heraclitus]

New topic- are stats in "solved" crimes driven by the type of people committing crimes, or are they more a reflection of where society goes looking for it?

This is a reasonable argument.

However why is the rate of reported crimes higher in low class African and Arab neighborhoods than in low class European ones? And why is the same true in the US, with the don't snitch culture among lower class Blacks?

Remember in the US most of the victims of Black crime are other Blacks. Do poor Whites share more solidarity with each other than poor Blacks and are less likley to report crimes? Seems far fetched.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

If I was a facetious man, I'd suggest that the white trash like to conduct their burglaries on the homes of the darkies. And you'll find "don't snitch" mentalities among white crime as well.

Fortunately I'm not.

[Heraclitus]

That's not what I meant. I was talking about the allegedly "European" alleged "city" of Malmö that allegedly "expelled" its alleged "Jews" with alleged "threats and violence".

It's odd that you decry "hate" speech legislation when most of the "crimes" against Jews in Malmö, which were the basis of the media outcry last year, are of that same nature.

Hate speech legislation makes it impossible to talk about the root cause of the crimes against the Jews in Malmo.

Also let me present you with a hypothetical case:
A Swedish kid gets severely beaten up while he is taunted as a infidel by a few Muslim kids.
A Muslim kid gets severely beaten up while he is taunted as a Muslim by a few Swedish kids.

In which case is there a higher % of a hate crime being reported in addition to the base charge?
Just by looking at convictions and compare them to polled opinions (of antisemitic, racist or homophobic sentiments) we can see that in all the countries the legislation is rarely used to protect natives, be they Christian, Atheist or Jewish (unless the assailants on the Jews happens to be other native borns, then they are protected). In practical terms such legislation does diddly squat for Jews assaulted by any of the protected ethnicities.

[Heraclitus]

If I was a facetious man, I'd suggest that the white trash like to conduct their burglaries on the homes of the darkies. And you'll find "don't snitch" mentalities among white crime as well.

Fortunately I'm not.

Then what is your response?

[Kitschum]

Hate speech legislation makes it impossible to talk about the root cause of the crimes against the Jews in Malmo.

If it's impossible to discuss I've yet to notice it, but I digress. In this thread Heraclitus goes way overboard with the alarmism regarding one case in France that doesn't even appear to have led to a conviction (yet?).

The other point is that "crimes against Jews" is in itself a hate crimes category. If hate crimes are not a good thing to record separately, then that includes anti-semitic crimes. Jews aren't special. Do you agree or not? In other words, is your position consistent or not, because it appears like it isn't.

Just by looking at convictions and compare them to polled opinions (of antisemitic, racist or homophobic sentiments) we can see that in all the countries the legislation is rarely used to protect natives, be they Christian, Atheist or Jewish (unless the assailants on the Jews happens to be other native borns, then they are protected). In practical terms such legislation does diddly squat for Jews assaulted by any of the protected ethnicities.

Hate crimes reported in this country are usually trifles. In the vast number of cases it's speech (insults), threats, vandalism, even discrimination is called a hate crime. Maybe singling them out as hate crimes has an effect, maybe it doesn't. I notice you've already made up your mind on that but I haven't. Some people think that's an irrelevant consideration and that it's important for society to make a "statement". I disagree, but it's not one of my major personal concerns.

[Heraclitus]

If it's impossible to discuss I've yet to notice it, but I digress. In this thread Heraclitus goes way overboard with the alarmism regarding one case in France that doesn't even appear to have led to a conviction (yet?).

The other point is that "crimes against Jews" is in itself a hate crimes category. If hate crimes are not a good thing to record separately, then that includes anti-semitic crimes. Jews aren't special. Do you agree or not? In other words, is your position consistent or not, because it appears like it isn't.

Crimes against Jews are like crimes against anyone else. However please remember why that was even brought up, I was contrasting the response of the Jewish and Asian organizations (I hope you agree that Asian or Jewish communities can be concerned specifically about crime targeted at them)- both are in a comparable situation, where their interests lie with the White Christians and Atheists. However Jews are still haunted by their fear of European Nazis or Antisemites, even thought there is hardly any group besides pedophiles that is less popular among Europeans. I'm not saying they shouldn't be wary, but they should acknowledge that Muslim communities are on average more antisemitic and more likley to attack them.

[Pekka]

Not making any comments on this thread, except that it's a fact that Jews are hated in Sweden and nobody really does anything about it. Europe is one of the worst place for Jewish people to be in, unfortunately. Open racism against Jews is tolerated, and to say this is - of course - racist.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Then what is your response?

That studies of where crimes are reported show you where crimes are reported. Not where crimes are committed or who is committing them.

It's a ****ty piece of journalism, Hera. A "polemicist" is misusing crime stats that don't stand up to analysis in order to foist a racist point that he can't prove.

[a.kitman]

it's a fact that Jews are hated in Sweden and nobody really does anything about it.

there are some facts we can get from your ******* but this isnt one of them.

[Wezil]

So is this yet another Hera thread on race?

Call me shocked.

[Felch]

I can see and accept that Holocaust denial should carry a fine, because its blindingly obvious that it did happen and people who deny it are mostly just spreading antisemitic propaganda.

Don't you realize that banning one type of political speech makes it that much easier to ban others?

Free speech should be as free as possible. Only restrictions we have around here are on fraudulent claims, or directly inciting violence. Holocaust deniers can be proven wrong in open discussion without relying on criminal sanctions.

[Dr Strangelove]

Don't you realize that banning one type of political speech makes it that much easier to ban others?

Free speech should be as free as possible. Only restrictions we have around here are on fraudulent claims, or directly inciting violence. Holocaust deniers can be proven wrong in open discussion without relying on criminal sanctions.

All right! The NRA speaks out at last!

[Kitschum]

Crimes against Jews are like crimes against anyone else. However please remember why that was even brought up, I was contrasting the response of the Jewish and Asian organizations (I hope you agree that Asian or Jewish communities can be concerned specifically about crime targeted at them)- both are in a comparable situation, where their interests lie with the White Christians and Atheists. However Jews are still haunted by their fear of European Nazis or Antisemites, even thought there is hardly any group besides pedophiles that is less popular among Europeans. I'm not saying they shouldn't be wary, but they should acknowledge that Muslim communities are on average more antisemitic and more likley to attack them.

I do get what you mean. Your actual position is that we should do away with hate crimes legislation altogether. The way you go about arguing it could be confused for wanting to extend hate crimes to cover more groups more thoroughly, like whites, French, or Swedes, or just wanting to apply the laws differently.

In fact you were trying to show that the Jewish organizations are hypocrites because they pick the wrong "side" as if that was the issue. I'm fairly certain that the Jewish organizations in question do not agree with you in opposing all hate crimes laws, and might in fact welcome increased attention to all hate crimes, whether by Muslims or non-Muslims. If they aren't, you've at least yet failed to show so.

Summing up, your position is that hate crimes laws should really be done away with but failing that Jewish organizations should acknowledge that Muslims commit most anti-semitic hate crimes. You do realize how this might get confusing.

Incidentally, here's what Swedish Jewish organizations were saying last year when the increase in reported anti-semitic (hate) crimes was making the news:

To gain entry to various Jewish organizations in Sweden you need to show identification. There are surveillance cameras on the roof. A police car is parked outside the Jewish school in Stockholm every day to guarantee the children's safety.

Lena Posner-Körösi [president of the Jewish Central Council] knows that the security measures are necessary. Throughout the years she has received lots of threats, everything from letters and calls to people accosting her in the streets.
- They might say things like we Jews are murderers, that we're going to die, that Hitler didn't finish the job, she says.

According to Lena Posner-Körösi the calls largely come from people with connections to Islamist groups in Sweden. Often the threats increase when there is instability in the Middle East, she claims. A fresh example is the debate on Ship to Gaza a few weeks ago. At that time the Jewish school was hit with vandalism.
- They're making a direct connection with the Jewish group. We're being held responsible, she says.
...
Even though the threats have become a part of daily life for Lena Posner-Körösi she is not letting herself be afraid. She is less upset about those who threaten than with the fact that there is no attention being called to the harrassments. Maybe it is a question of their not being many Jews in Sweden, she says.
- I want to make a stand, that opinion makers, politicians, and media say that this is not acceptable, says Lena Posner-Körösi...

http://www.nyhetskanalen.se/1.1701032/2010/07/01/hatbrott_mot_judar_i_sverige_okar

I guess the Swedish Jewish organizations are off the hook for hypocrisy then, at least for now.