Religion: Real or Fake

[DinoDoc]

"I'm Omnipotent, but I'm giving you 'free will' so I can arbitrarily condemn you to eternal suffering if you don't brown nose enough. ... You know Yahweh loves ya!"

Without free will, how would someone be held responsible for their actions? Indeed why would those actions have any meaning at all from a moral perspective?

[Lonestar]

Without free will, how would someone be held responsible for their actions? Indeed why would those actions have any meaning at all from a moral perspective?

If God is omnipotent and omnescient then by definition you don't have free will, and God is being capricious "just because". If God is NOT Omnipotent, then why call him God?

[Dinner]

"I'm Omnipotent, but I'm giving you 'free will' so I can arbitrarily condemn you to eternal suffering if you don't brown nose enough. Oh yeah and there won't be any actual evidence of my existence. You know Yahweh loves ya!"

That's sig material right there!

[SlowwHand]

If God is omnipotent and omnescient then by definition you don't have free will, and God is being capricious "just because". If God is NOT Omnipotent, then why call him God?

That's not true.

[Lonestar]

That's not true.

Riddle me this Batman, if someone is all-powerful, and all-knowing, then how does "free will" factor in?

If someone is NOT all-powerful and/or all-knowing, then the person wouldn't be God with a capital G, would he?

[Egbert]

Riddle me this Batman, if someone is all-powerful, and all-knowing, then how does "free will" factor in?

If someone is NOT all-powerful and/or all-knowing, then the person wouldn't be God with a capital G, would he?

If god is omnipotent and omniscient he can leave you to your own devices hence the possibility of free will. (ie You are left to do as you see fit). God is not obliged to micromanage living creatures.

[Lonestar]

If god is omnipotent and omniscient he can leave you to your own devices hence the possibility of free will. (ie You are left to do as you see fit). God is not obliged to micromanage living creatures.

If God is all-knowing then he knows what choices you're going to make, so free-will is a shame.

[Egbert]

If he knows but does nothing to change your choice then you still have free will. You decided, and acted, by your own volition.

[Lonestar]

If he knows but does nothing to change your choice then you still have free will. You decided, and acted, by your own volition.

Nonsense, if he knows what you are going to do(and he is if he is all-knowing), then that means there is no free will. Everything is preordained. Yahweh is a dude who gets his shiggles tormenting people.

[Lonestar]

The alternative of course is that Yahweh really isn't all-knowing and all-powerful, and so not really God(or doesn't exist).

[MikeH]

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Philip K. Dick

[Egbert]

Nonsense, if he knows what you are going to do(and he is if he is all-knowing), then that means there is no free will. Everything is preordained. Yahweh is a dude who gets his shiggles tormenting people.

If we were to continue I think we should soon be having a "free will versus determinism" debate. I don't think either free will or determinism necessarily preclude the existence of a god. A god of some sort, not necessarily omniscient with respect to the future, could coexist with either free will or determinism.

Of course I accept that an alternative explanation is that god might not be omniscient or may not exist. (The omnipotence seems irrelevant to our discussion about free will).

[Egbert]

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Philip K. Dick

That is the annoying thing about reality.

[Lonestar]

If we were to continue I think we should soon be having a "free will versus determinism" debate. I don't think either free will or determinism necessarily preclude the existence of a god. A god of some sort, not necessarily omniscient with respect to the future, could coexist with either free will or determinism.

Of course I accept that an alternative explanation is that god might not be omniscient or may not exist. (The omnipotence seems irrelevant to our discussion about free will).

Sorry. I should have made it more clear. For the purposes of the argument I've been having with Nikolai and Kenobi, I am operating under the assumption that they are referring to Yahweh(God with a capital G). Yahweh is typically pitched as being all-powerful and all-knowing by modern Christians. The Bible itself argues against this, there are many instances where Yahweh is not all-knowing or is stymied through ludricous means, which implies that God isn't God but a god and one of many rivals. Or doesn't exist.

So basically

(1)He either knows everything is pre-ordained, right down to who is going to make decisions to end up in Hell, and so he's letting it ride because he enjoys tormenting others.
(2)Yahweh is in fact nowhere near as powerful as modern christians would have you believe, and there are multiple options(I like the God-Emperor of Mankind myself) out there. Yahweh is not all-knowing and all-powerful, so free will exists.
(3)There isn't a god or Divine Progenitor.

[Egbert]

Sorry. I should have made it more clear. For the purposes of the argument I've been having with Nikolai and Kenobi, I am operating under the assumption that they are referring to Yahweh(God with a capital G). Yahweh is typically pitched as being all-powerful and all-knowing by modern Christians.

You were clear. I could see, all along, that you were operating under the assumption of an omniscient god. I was suggesting that that free will does not preclude the existence of an omniscient god. I am suggesting that even if a god knew what I was going to do then I could still choose my actions.

I think you have countered that if this god "knew" what I was going to do then my actions are pre-ordained. I presume we agree that free will and pre-ordination are mutually exclusive? It seems the point of difference between our positions is whether or not divine omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive? (I have not touched on any other points which you have been discussing with others).

For my part, I could not continue this discussion without getting into rather long and pointless discussion of definitions of free will and determinism and the extent to which we do have free will. I think we act in accordance with what we perceive to our own self interest with regard to trrade offs between long term and short term interest and empathy plays a part. Yeah, that is a bit vague and one could argue about how much of that is free will and how much is determinism. It would be a tedious and pointless discussion.

Agree to disagree?