Religion: Real or Fake

[MOBIUS]

That's Elok out of the equation then!

[Ming]

The inconsistency I referred to was yours, not theirs.

Again... please point out any inconsistency on my part... but good luck, because it isn't inconsistent... unless you continue to make stuff up.

You're a "lapsed Catholic"

That just means I no longer support the Catholic Church... it does NOT mean I'm an atheist, or say whether I believe in Jesus or not.

who just spent like ten pages on the atheist side of a Christian/atheist slapfest.

You can call it the atheist side, I see it totally differently. I see some morons trying to dictate how and what people should believe... I see them making stupid claims like since some doen't believe like them, they can't truly "forgive" somebody... I see people who claim they are great christians attacking people and throwing around insults, something a true christian wouldn't do. That's what I'm against.
I frankly don't give a damn what god you wish to believe in. Just please don't try to cram your personal beliefs down everybody elses throats.

I called it like I saw it.

Maybe you should invest in some glasses.

Whatever you are, you don't seem to be a devout Christian.

I don't give a crap what you think... my personal beliefs are just that... personal. Go judge somebody else. Don't try to cram your beliefs down our throats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satire

You should probably invest in some more classes as well. Maybe a writing class that specializes in satire. You've proven your lack of skills in that area.

[Elok]

An agnostic and an atheist are two completely different beasts. Just from that point alone, I think you need to be going back to the drawing board WRT your 'understanding'.

Yes, I am aware of that. As a practical matter, however, there's not a lot of difference. He doesn't go to church, he's skeptical of all religious claims--that he doesn't believe in God, as opposed to believing there is no God, is a minor point. They're simply different formulations of an absence of belief. Agnostic:Atheist::Hard Libertarian:Anarchist. Where does the one end and the other begin? What does it matter?

As for mine, I'd say mine is very well developed for a non believer. It is such an important subject that you need to know where you stand and why, and for that reason I have invested significant time finding out about religion. You may be an expert in YOUR religion, but I'm willing to bet that your knowledge about other religions is no better than mine. I'm also willing to bet that I've visited more religious buildings of more religions in more countries than you have - or probably ever will!

In fact, compared to me, I'm willing to bet that you know **** all about world religion...

I'm talking about the point of view, not the doctrine. If it were a matter of doctrine, a serious comparison with atheism/agnosticism would be nonsensical, as the whole point is that none of you have any doctrine (religious folks reading this, please don't bring up Dawkins et al, that's a troll for another day). But I can understand the heathen POV well enough, even where I disagree with it. Enough that I can actually respect your decisions and not push you.

Whereas you routinely say "ha ha, there are different religious beliefs, they must all be wrong" as though it's devastating, while every religious person who reads it just sort of blinks and then disregards you as a tool for saying it. You might have visited every Stupa and Mandir in India and every Mosque in the Middle East, but you don't seem to have the vaguest notion of where we're coming from.

[Elok]

In fact, just from purely the Orthodox Church (in its many guises!), I'd say there is a significant chance that I've visited more churches, monasteries and cathredrals, of more flavours, in more countries than you have.

I probably PWN you on Orthodoxy alone!

:facepalm: My religion isn't Pokemon. The point isn't to collect 'em all. Where you've been is irrelevant to it, except in an "Ooh, you've been to Mt. Athos/St. Catherine's/Wherever? Neat!" way.

[MOBIUS]

I've just been called a heathen!

Do you even understand exactly what that word means!?

[Elok]

I don't give a crap what you think... my personal beliefs are just that... personal. Go judge somebody else. Don't try to cram your beliefs down our throats.

I don't have time to go through all of these right now, but how is claiming the RCC the One True Church not "cramming your beliefs?"

[Elok]

I've just been called a heathen!

Do you even understand exactly what that word means!?

Yes, I used it ironically.

[Ming]

Whereas you routinely say "ha ha, there are different religious beliefs, they must all be wrong" as though it's devastating,

Well... they can't all be right. Who is to say your belief's are the true ones... It's a simple fact that most people would disagree with your personal beliefs, since they aren't there personal beliefs.

Again, they can't all be right... and that is pretty devastating. And any religious person that reads that and doesn't consider that basic truth is just another brainwashed tool.

Heck, your beliefs may be right... who knows, but the majority of people disagree with you, and they might be right as well... even those that believe that there is no god.

[Ming]

I don't have time to go through all of these right now, but how is claiming the RCC the One True Church not "cramming your beliefs?"

Not cramming MY beliefs at all... but I am pointing out the facts. You want to argue the facts, fine by me. Mobius at least countered with different facts. He gets it... you obviously don't.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I don't have time to go through all of these right now, but how is claiming the RCC the One True Church not "cramming your beliefs?"

The issue is that Ming hasn't thought his own argument through. But you already know that.

And yes, MOBIUS, it is no secret that Elok is Orthodox and also yes, they have just as valid claim on being the pre-eminent church, historically speaking, as does the Bishop of Rome.

[Ming]

The issue is that Ming hasn't thought his own argument through. But you already know that.

If you think that's the issue, than you haven't thought anything at all.

[Elok]

Yes, I may be wrong. I'm not Kid, I can accept that. But Mobius never uses anything but that one argument, and it's really not persuasive in the slightest. There are strong differences of opinion on every important subject.

I'm sorry for incorrectly assuming you're an atheist. But if you're not Catholic, and you never bring them up except to bash them, why exactly are you saying they have a legitimate claim for being the correct Christian church? It seems you don't believe in it yourself, yet you're advocating that POV. How is that not hypocrisy?

[MOBIUS]

:facepalm: My religion isn't Pokemon. The point isn't to collect 'em all. Where you've been is irrelevant to it, except in an "Ooh, you've been to Mt. Athos/St. Catherine's/Wherever? Neat!" way.

It depends. If you're merely collecting them pokemon style without stopping to take in the faith that built these structures exactly where they were built, the history that is involved and, in many cases, the challenges faced, then I understand. However, if you take an interest in these things, you cannot help but be awed by them on a spiritual level, when for example, you stand at the summit of Mt Sinai, or indeed visit St Catherine's monastery; or you visit the hanging church in Cairo; or stand in Salamis where St Barnabas was martyred and visit his nearby church; or stand in awe, gazing up at the 'holy wisdom' of the Hagia Sophia...

Each one of those represents an epiphanous monument or moment in the orthodox church, during a time of superstition before science was able to explain many of the things that were routinely attributed to god. A misguided age, if you will, but still one loaded in spirituality nonetheless. Something I can respect, as long as the adherents have the good grace to consign it to the history books where it belongs...

You can feel the faith and spirituality when you visit these places, as I have, just as you feel the struggle and the conflict of separate religions competing to wipe each other out - the hypocrisy of it all...

[Elok]

Mm-hmm. Leaving out your fallacious scientism, do you happen to know what theosis is? Or the nous? Theotokos? Amartia? Hesychasia? The Jesus Prayer? Troparia? Megalynaria?

EDIT: Do we believe in justification by faith or works? What's our understanding of Original Sin? How does our concept of the atonement differ from the Western one? How do we shape our hands when crossing ourselves, and what does it signify? What's the current situation of the American churches? What are the differences between the liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and Basil the Great?

ANOTHER EDIT, WHY NOT: St. John Climacus? St. Raphael of Brooklyn? St. John Maximovitch? St. Gregory Palamas? How many Ecumenical Councils do we accept? What are our sacraments? What's a phelonion? The Lenten Triodion? Who's Metropolitan Kallistos of Diokleia? Who's Timothy Ware?

[Ming]

Yes, I may be wrong. I'm not Kid, I can accept that. But Mobius never uses anything but that one argument, and it's really not persuasive in the slightest. There are strong differences of opinion on every important subject.

Thank good you aren't Kid Him, and some others claim they are such Chrisitians, and then go around insulting people, which is not a Christian Act. Talk about hypocrisy.

I'm sorry for incorrectly assuming you're an atheist. But if you're not Catholic, and you never bring them up except to bash them, why exactly are you saying they have a legitimate claim for being the correct Christian church? It seems you don't believe in it yourself, yet you're advocating that POV. How is that not hypocrisy?

How I feel about the Catholic church doesn't change the fact that they do have a legitimate claim. Obviously others do as well.
But that's the whole point. There is no hypocrisy here.

Some here are claiming that their view on Christianity is the ONLY view, and if you don't believe in their view, you aren't really a Christian. And beyond that, the claims that unless you believe like them, you can't be moral or even forgive.
What bull****.

I will continue to attack the RCC. They deserve it. I will also continue to attack self rightious jerks. They deserve it as well.