Religion: Real or Fake

[rah]

But the question is, could the same thing be accomplished without a belief in God. If so, then maybe God was just a placebo and it doesn't really prove anything.

[Jon Miller]

I said it wasn't evidence for everyone. You have a different 'theory' that it is evidence for (or you disbelieve in my 'result' or whatever).

But that doesn't stop it being evidence.

The key test of Christianity is to really be Christian, really Believe and have a little Faith. And then God will give you the evidence you need.

Jonathan

[Imran Siddiqui]

Having faith isn't just doing what we do to get a good feeling. Faith goes beyond that. It's natural to believe in God when we get a good feeling from it, when we avoid human suffering and christian suffering. What's hard is going beyong that.

How natural is it for us to believe that God wants us to be free from human and christian suffering, but how hard is it to have faith? Let's assume that God doesn't want Jon to be a scientist, or get married, or have any children. Let's say God wants him to go live as a hermit in the desert and eat only locusts and wild honey, wear only camel hair for clothing and offend the highest members of society until they throw him into prison and eventually cut off his head. Only faith will make him do that.

Um... obviously if God wants him to go off as a hermit, Jon will get... tada... a feeling about it. That is what people mean when they feel God's presence. Faith in this case involves trusting in what God has told him. You aren't doing things to get a feeling out of it, but you should be able to feel the presence of God in your life.

[rah]

I think of all those people that kill because God told them to.

Hey, I'm not knocking faith. I was raised Catholic and had faith. So much so that I considered becoming a priest. Faith is a personal thing. But a man can be good and moral without that faith in god. A man can aspire to more and to help others without a belief in God. I don't need to be bribed with a future heaven to treat my fellow man good now. That's it's own reward. Anything you can accomplish through god can be accomplished without. If you need god to go that extra step, fine but don't tell me it's a requirement because it's not.

[giblets]

If our understanding of science is correct, it is probabilistic.

Jonathan

Okay. I will say that it currently seems very unlikely that life would form by natural means on one planet only, but that only means it's extremely unlikely that we will find that this is the case, I don't see why it would be impossible for it to be the case.

[Ming]

How natural is it for us to believe that God wants us to be free from human and christian suffering, but how hard is it to have faith? Let's assume that God doesn't want Jon to be a scientist, or get married, or have any children. Let's say God wants him to go live as a hermit in the desert and eat only locusts and wild honey, wear only camel hair for clothing and offend the highest members of society until they throw him into prison and eventually cut off his head. Only faith will make him do that.

Gee... so much for a god that gives us free will

It wouldn't be faith that would make him do it... just pure stupidity.
You act like your god actually gives a crap about specific people... and that it's "God's Plan"

Well, if there is a god, his plan is pretty screwed up. Religion is the basis for much suffering in the world.
God needs to "come up with a plan" for more people.

[Docfeelgood]

OMG!
I had to nap and you are still going at this?
Have you been convertered yet?

[N35t0r]

Because I'm showing that people are unreasonable. Don't take it personal.

Only if by 'people', you mean yourself. That you think a belief is unreasonable, doesn't make it so.

Indeed, it's reasonable to believe that we have free will on the basis that possibly all of us actually do believe that we do.

Yes, but that's not what you said. You said that not believing in free will was unreasonable.

[Docfeelgood]

I have a lot of evidence that He exists.

For example. I normally am very nervous on presentations. In fact, most presentations I have done things like stutter and even forget what University I was from! (I am from the University of, the University of, the University of.... pause, look at my slide, the University of Maryland).

In the fall of 2009 I completed thesis, I had a new job waiting in Sweden. In fact, I was late, and so after I completed my thesis, I started work on learning about IceCube. I also needed to move. As is always the case, moving took a lot longer than I thought it would, and suddenly it was Monday and my Defense was on Thursday (I think, I might have the days off by 1 or 2). I had talked about my thesis work before (as mentioned above), and so had many slides already prepared. I went to work. I met with my advisor once more before the Defense (it was two days away) the next day. My presentation (the presentation, not the slides) was terrible. Utterly terrible. And generally, I do much much much better in private practices (with my advisor, supervisor, other students/postdocs, etc) than I did for the presentation. I just got really really nervous on the presentation.

And I prayed. And prayed. And went back to work.

The next day, my presentation was looking much better. I practiced for a friend, it was my 'usual'. I had a few slides to fix. I fixed them, I prayed. I was very very nervous.

The next day, I went in. When I stood up in front, I felt calm. I gave a great presentation, and answered all the questions given to me smoothly and correctly (on a couple of items where I wasn't the expert, I had to give the explanation I knew and then say that it was just correct to first order, which I did). It was the smoothest defense of any of my friends. Afterwards (and it was shorter than many), they complimented me. I could tell that some were pleasantly surprised.

Note normally, on my presentations in the past (and in the future ), I would sometimes have problems with the simplest of questions (and wouldn't be asked any difficult ones).

Now this is just minor. And just one small story to tell, not sure why I told that one and not one from last year.

Now I know that this isn't evidence for everyone. But it is evidence for me. And is the least of the evidence for me.

But the biggest evidence is how I changed from an angry, antisocial, maybe even sociopathic individual into a kind, caring, friendly, gentle individual.

For Christians, faith is usually not blind (or it shouldn't be).

If you are a Christian, and you don't see evidence of God working in your life, then something is wrong and you need to re-examine your Christianity.

JM

Should try some of my prozac first.

[Dinner]

Religion is fake. I was raised in a not very religious family (other then one set of grandparents) though we still celebrated religious holidays but mostly in a secular way (I.E. the kids learned about the Easter bunny and a mild version of the Christian Easter Christian holiday but the secular Easter Bunny was far more important then any religious observance; the same went with Xmas). I'm pretty much the same today though my girlfriend is some what more religious then me and sometimes wants to drag me to church with her though she has only gone a couple of times and usually here motivation is to network and meet new people rather then because of strong religious belief.

[Docfeelgood]

Jon that was just a jk.

Yes, I too have seen miracles.
I don't know if any of you remember when my second wife allmost died.
I posted for your prayers.
Make a long story short.
She recovered when she should not have.
She is catholic BTW.
I had a priest give last rites.
He came by to check on her a few days later and saw the recovery.
He said he was going to ( I don't know what it is) see about having this declaired a miracle by the church.
I don't think they did BTW
I would be very naive of me to say devine intervention did not take place.
This experince has made me humble.
Proof?
No.
sorry.
I don't know where Im going with this.
It is still hard for me to even think or discuss about that dark time in my life.
I'm crying now just mentioning it now.
sorry.

[Docfeelgood]

Religion is fake. I was raised in a not very religious family (other then one set of grandparents) though we still celebrated religious holidays but mostly in a secular way (I.E. the kids learned about the Easter bunny and a mild version of the Christian Easter Christian holiday but the secular Easter Bunny was far more important then any religious observance; the same went with Xmas). I'm pretty much the same today though my girlfriend is some what more religious then me and sometimes wants to drag me to church with her though she has only gone a couple of times and usually here motivation is to network and meet new people rather then because of strong religious belief.

I also hate religion.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Jon that was just a jk.

Yes, I too have seen miracles.
I don't know if any of you remember when my second wife allmost died.
I posted for your prayers.
Make a long story short.
She recovered when she should not have.
She is catholic BTW.
I had a priest give last rites.
He came by to check on her a few days later and saw the recovery.
He said he was going to ( I don't know what it is) see about having this declaired a miracle by the church.
I don't think they did BTW
I would be very naive of me to say devine intervention did not take place.
This experince has made me humble.
Proof?
No.
sorry.
I don't know where Im going with this.
It is still hard for me to even think or discuss about that dark time in my life.
I'm crying now just mentioning it now.
sorry.

That was strong stuff, Doc. Thanks for posting this. I'll pray for you and yours.

[DaShi]

He's a person, who knew?

[Kidlicious]

Yes, but that's not what you said. You said that not believing in free will was unreasonable.

So you believe as gribbler does than that reason can come to two opposite beliefs.