Religion: Real or Fake

[MOBIUS]

Wow, that's really retarded...

[Ming]

You may have to actually read a book. It's Predictably Irrational: The Hidden Forces That Shape Our Decision written by an economist who did the research by the name of Dan Ariely.

Without the technical appendix or methodology behind the research, who knows whether it's actually good research or not. I can do research that is rigged to prove any point I want... that doesn't make it a fact, just bad research and bad conclussions.

And if I have to wade through an entire book instead of a consise summary of the methodology and the results plus conclusions, it's probably not worth the effort.

In business, whenever anybody wants to show me "sound bites" from a research study, the first thing I ask for is the methodology, so that I can make my own opinion on whether the research should even be considered valid.

[MOBIUS]

More smoke and mirrors...

[Ming]

Well, if you just surveyed Christians and asked them if Christianity is the one true religion, the results are easy to predict. Ask a group of people from a different religion the same question, and the results are just as easy to predict. Both results would be different, but people could use sound bite summaries to back up their claims from either study, and say that their claims are backed up by research

[N35t0r]

In order to have free will we must have a mind which is something different than the brain.

Define 'mind'. I think that what we call 'mind' is effectively the 'software' running in our brains, and as such is inherently limited by our brain's 'hardware'. I think that there isn't anything else to that mind and thus no foundation on which to base the possibility of free will.

Tha tmind is, however, sufficiently advanced to make us sentient.

The evidence that we do have a mind and free will is that we can use it to alter the way the brain works.

I fail to see the logic in this argument. If a robot has software that can alter the way it's hardware works, it has free will?

That is I can consciously use my mind to alter my brain.

Which goes back to what you think the 'mind' is. But it's nothing more than your opinion.

http://bigthink.com/ideas/23943[/QUOTE]

Because materialists have no idea whatsoever about how the mind works. It's very unlikely that science will ever help us understand this.

[giblets]

Questions for dualists:
1. Why does brain damage cause people to behave differently?
2. Please explain whether the following is an attribute of the mind or the brain:
a) intelligence
b) emotions
c) desires
d) sentience
e) decision-making
f) memories (how can brain damage make people lose memory?)

[Kidlicious]

Without the technical appendix or methodology behind the research, who knows whether it's actually good research or not. I can do research that is rigged to prove any point I want... that doesn't make it a fact, just bad research and bad conclussions.

And if I have to wade through an entire book instead of a consise summary of the methodology and the results plus conclusions, it's probably not worth the effort.

In business, whenever anybody wants to show me "sound bites" from a research study, the first thing I ask for is the methodology, so that I can make my own opinion on whether the research should even be considered valid.

You aren't willing to read a book but you want to analyze the research.

[rah]

Anyone on the internet that asks someone to read a book to prove a point they're trying to make is just rude. It's not worth it. Especially when you reference it with a page number which may not match if someone has a different printing or buys it on line. You couldn't have taken a couple of minutes to summarize it but you expect someone to read the entire book. Geeze.

[Kidlicious]

Define 'mind'. I think that what we call 'mind' is effectively the 'software' running in our brains, and as such is inherently limited by our brain's 'hardware'. I think that there isn't anything else to that mind and thus no foundation on which to base the possibility of free will.

Wouldn't that be wonderfull if we had just one definition of the mind. Obviously we don't, but since I do believe in free will and disagree with materialism I call the mind what gives us free will and that which is different from the brain. There's an unconscious mind but that doesn't concern us right now.

It is not software as we do have free will. I can make a decision by myself to alter my brain and I can be successful.

Tha tmind is, however, sufficiently advanced to make us sentient.

What does that mean?

I fail to see the logic in this argument. If a robot has software that can alter the way it's hardware works, it has free will?

No that's what makes us different from computers. We don't run on software or anything like it.

Which goes back to what you think the 'mind' is. But it's nothing more than your opinion.

It's a lot of people's opinions, including neuroscientists and many others who have put a lot of thought and work into it. I think the materialist opinion is not compatable with the research and is not reasonable.

[Kidlicious]

Questions for dualists:
1. Why does brain damage cause people to behave differently?
2. Please explain whether the following is an attribute of the mind or the brain:
a) intelligence
b) emotions
c) desires
d) sentience
e) decision-making
f) memories (how can brain damage make people lose memory?)

None of this makes any sense. For example memory is a material thing.

[Jon Miller]

Questions for dualists:
1. Why does brain damage cause people to behave differently?
2. Please explain whether the following is an attribute of the mind or the brain:
a) intelligence
b) emotions
c) desires
d) sentience
e) decision-making
f) memories (how can brain damage make people lose memory?)

Your questions are silly, but the subject is an interesting one.

I am not sure if you understand the points of view on the subject.

Let me ask you this, what about those brain damaged people? Those who learn to walk or talk again. Those who lose the part that governs sight/etc, but learn to see/etc again?

Do you understand what dualism means? What monism means?

To help you out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dualism_(philosophy_of_mind)

This doesn't really have much to do with this thread though... I know many dualists who are religious and many who are not.

JM
(I am for the most part a reductionist (and obviously a materialist, the one exception is God), but have serious doubts about it.)

[N35t0r]

Wouldn't that be wonderfull if we had just one definition of the mind. Obviously we don't, but since I do believe in free will and disagree with materialism I call the mind what gives us free will and that which is different from the brain. There's an unconscious mind but that doesn't concern us right now.

So your 'mind' is an intangible, supernatural thing? (ps: I'm not deriding or anything, just want to be clear on what's your position)

It is not software as we do have free will. I can make a decision by myself to alter my brain and I can be successful.

But this last part is totally irrelevant. It's clear that in both my view and yours, this mind is affecting the brain. My argument is about the source of this effect: we can't really know, and since we don't really know how the brain works in enough detail to get a glimpse into this (by your own admission) both are equally plausible.

Your first sentence is just circular logic.

What does that mean?

That being sentient has nothing to do with having, or not, free will.

No that's what makes us different from computers. We don't run on software or anything like it.

That's just your opinion.

It's a lot of people's opinions, including neuroscientists and many others who have put a lot of thought and work into it. I think the materialist opinion is not compatable with the research and is not reasonable.

Sources?

[Kidlicious]

Anyone on the internet that asks someone to read a book to prove a point they're trying to make is just rude. It's not worth it. Especially when you reference it with a page number which may not match if someone has a different printing or buys it on line. You couldn't have taken a couple of minutes to summarize it but you expect someone to read the entire book. Geeze.

If there were a problem with the research I'm sure you could find it on-line. No independent researchers have attempte to duplicate the results though that I know of.

[Docfeelgood]

Questions for dualists:
1. Why does brain damage cause people to behave differently?
2. Please explain whether the following is an attribute of the mind or the brain:
a) intelligence
b) emotions
c) desires
d) sentience
e) decision-making
f) memories (how can brain damage make people lose memory?)

my head hurts

[Docfeelgood]

I forgot, what were we discussing?