Germany never changes... German leader says multiculturalism has failed.

[OzzyKP]

Your argument is as silly as how you take what I just said. You lump millions of INDIVIDUALS into a cultural group and demand that they be separate from your own because they are intrinsically incompatible and the division between cultures is not transient but ever-eternal and has always existed since time immemorial and there is no reconciliation so instead there must be, inevitably using your logic, deportations and separate bathrooms for the races, etc., yet somehow, that's okay?

Exactly.

[Monk]

Based on what? One could certainly make the argument that East Asian nations are far more different from Europeans than Muslims. We share common history with the Arabs & Turks, we share a monotheistic faith, we share geographical proximity and interaction. Rah just pointed out Chinatown, should we Americans be freaking about about this bizarre foreign Chinese culture invading our shores?

East Asian nations could very well be more different, but they sure tend to integrate or assimilate themselves - or, failing that, not cause the problems for society that we've seen with other types of immigrants. As for Chinatown, no I don't think there's any reason to be frightened, because it's my impression that Chinatown is not a tough burden on society, especially not in a country that offers substantially less welfare options than Northern European ones. But I'll leave that decision in the hands of the Americans and other nations with Chinatowns - including some European ones, by the way.

Europeans say "well, Mexicans are still western, still Christian, they aren't that different." But the howls from anti-immigrant Americans about Mexicans are the same as the cries from Europeans about Muslims. You (like they) just believe your bigotry is somehow special, or different, or justified.

But you're not responding to my point about the cultural links. You're expecting everybody with a foreign background to behave the same when it's obvious they don't.

I wasn't suggesting that you wouldn't like them, I was saying that they assimilate fine and that there is nothing inherent about Islam that makes Muslims incapable of assimilating.

That's great, but we don't see all that much assimilating here, sadly.

Fine, Arabic is more challenging a language to learn than Dutch. But the reason immigrants learn or don't learn a language has nothing to do with how challenging it is. Despite the many influences between Spanish and English, "off the boat" Mexican immigrants generally don't learn the language. By and large though their kids speak perfect English no different than anyone else. Which is just how it worked with Italians and Chinese and every other group. If you are saying that Muslim immigrants, who assimilate fine in the United States, have a very big problem assimilating in Europe then my guess is the problem doesn't lie with the immigrants but the European countries they find themselves in.

Actually it could very well lie with the immigrants in the sense that if you're able and willing to work, then you make an effort to go to a country like the US with fairly low taxes, and if you're not able or not willing then you'd be more inclined to go after a higher security.

[OzzyKP]

Then maybe socialism is the problem, not immigration.

[Monk]

Then maybe socialism is the problem, not immigration.

I'm not a socialist, I do believe that the welfare state has gone too far here and I'd support cutbacks. But either how, I'll maintain that Denmark or any country's policies should primarily be based on its own citizens' interests, and in that light I'll have to say your comment is a wee bit too easy. Let's say we knew for certain that significant immigrant problems in America could be relieved through massive tax-financed spendings. Would you approve of that, then? I don't think you would, so neither do I think you're entirely fair in expecting Europeans (edit: some Europeans, that is!) to change their preferred system to accomodate foreigners.

[DriXnaK]

Actually, I don't think hardly any Americans have an issue with Mexicans. What we have a problem with is that they come here illegally and then use our laws to their advantage like the use of anchor babies for example. It's true, they are a western Christian nation and their culture isn't that different from ours. That's why they can assimilate in for the most part. The problem is that when they are here illegally they are less likely to assimilate. The only people throwing the racism card are idiots like Ozzy and Al B who think the US shouldn't have immigration laws at all and we should just let anyone and everyone in. Mexicans>Arabs any day of the week as far as immigration is concerned. Even if Mexicans were to make up the bulk of the country the worst thing that could happen is that our language changes to Spanish, which is the worst ****ing language on the planet. In the end, the immigration debate in this country isn't about Mexicans, it's about enforcing the law. It just happens that Mexicans are the largest group of law breakers.

[Monk]

Exactly.

Does that thumbs up mean you agree with Al's assumptions that I have a racial perspective about this, that I want us to go along the route to seperate bathrooms, or that I have the characteristics of a clansman? Because in that case, I'll dare to lump two INDIVIDUALS into the same group of overly politically correct people who pay little actual attention to what people say and don't say.

[Dinner]

It's pretty telling that the Islamist PM of Turkey agreed with the Merkel and said Turkish immigrants to Germany should work hard at integrating to the culture of the country in which they live. No one is saying they have to give up their religion but lots of people are saying they need to learn to speak German, conform to German cultural values in a broad sense (no killing your daughter because she decides to date someone who isn't a Turkish muslim), and actually work instead of just trying to suck up welfare. The immigrants who do that will probably do fairly well for themselves in their new country and the ones which don't will continue to be the problem case.

[germanos]

It's pretty telling that the Islamist PM of Turkey agreed with the Merkel and said Turkish immigrants to Germany should work hard at integrating to the culture of the country in which they live.

Yeah. He's still pissed the EU made him end the ban on speaking on writing Kurdish for crying out loud. Damned minorities

[Dinner]

Of course Turkey is not perfect but it is telling that even the Turkish PM, who has the most to object about Merkel's statement, is never the less supporting it.

[laurentius]

The point is, the less muslims or roma in Europe, the less problems. We have enough problems already, we dont need more imported by people fleeing from their fubar countries. Many times they simply bring their home countries problems with them. Who needs that?

[Dinner]

I can certainly agree that the less diverse the society is the less you will have integration problems but I think there is a middle ground some where.

[laurentius]

Well if you dont have people from regressive cultures you dont have integration problems now do you.

[Dinner]

True. But there has to be a happy medium where the good parts of bringing in new people balances the down sides.

[laurentius]

Cultures and religions aside we dont need any more people living off the welfare, we dont need people who bring anti social behaviour with them or whose social norms include harrasment of gays, women or sensually dressed ladies. That rules out most of Africa Middle East or South East-Asia. People from other nations are often happy and colourful, those are indeed an asset. Most importantly they dont force us to raise our tax burden even further

[germanos]

Of course Turkey is not perfect but it is telling that even the Turkish PM, who has the most to object about Merkel's statement, is never the less supporting it.

I was being sarcastic. The Turkish PM is obviously on Merkel's side. If mighty Deutschland can force-assimilate the turks, he can force-assimilate the Kurds, Armenians and whatnot. It helps that Kurds are over-represented under Turkish emigrants because of being forcibly turkonized at 'home'.