Papal Visit to the UK

[MOBIUS]

When you come to Cardiff in November, I'm going to pretend you're a Jehovah's Witness and ignore you.

[Asher]

WTF WOULD YOU GO TO CARDIFF???

ARE YOU MAD?

[Sava]

what is more reasonable - to think that you are the "only" one who is alive and intelligent in the universe where you can tell there are ~infinite number of places with the same or similar conditions (think star formation to start with), or due to similar conditions being ~infinite there are more of the same results as here?

What's reasonable is to only make conclusions on such matters with sufficient evidence.

Thought experiments are certainly encouraged, but cannot be assigned values and compared as to their level of "reasonability" when there is insufficient evidence to make any conclusions.

[MikeH]

WTF WOULD YOU GO TO CARDIFF???

ARE YOU MAD?

I like Cardiff.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

But jumping from that to there is a god is far fetched. For one, most of the abilities associated with gods go way beyond the laws of physics.

well that is an argument - but I would say it is reasonable to consider that the abilites go beyond the laws of physics "as we undertand them today". Give another 5 bn years >>> God for todays humans - that is reasonable to me.

[MikeH]

Humans won't be around 5bn years.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

What's reasonable is to only make conclusions on such matters with sufficient evidence.

Thought experiments are certainly encouraged, but cannot be assigned values and compared as to their level of "reasonability" when there is insufficient evidence to make any conclusions.

sure, further evidence goes into "circumstantial" territory, and there is plenty of that. Bottom line - there is a very sound position to think that there are others/God in the play in this universe. Given the time scales and size involved of the universe as we understand it today - I would say - pretty conclusive thought experiment.

Next step, if you are so inclined - look into the "circumstantial" stuff... Jehovas Witnesses for Mobius, we want him to feel superior , and maybe something else for you.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Humans won't be around 5bn years.

well that is a serious discussion topic for KH to elaborate on. But why not?

Even today, there is very little expect our lack of willpower to stop us colonizing the rest of the galaxy. Sure it would take a few million years, but that is peanuts in universe terms. The only thing stopping us is not the tech of today, but the will to go away from Earth forever, live for generations on space ships to get to the possible destinations. We like it here too much still. One day there may be more appeal to move away from here, thus you get diveristy, and SMAC ... That day may be only thousands of years away... but it could also be today if we really wanted it. Maybe even if Bill Gates and Warren Buffet wanted that more than erasing poverty in Africa, or some other noble goal like that. Point being, moving away from here is easy, and even if there is a threat of nuclear war/some other catastrophe, we can survive even now, let alone later with better tech.

[giblets]

Humans won't be around 5bn years.

What will get rid of them within that time frame?

[OneFootInTheGrave]

we have aliens posting in here too

[N35t0r]

well that is an argument - but I would say it is reasonable to consider that the abilites go beyond the laws of physics "as we undertand them today". Give another 5 bn years >>> God for todays humans - that is reasonable to me.

So in 5bn years we'll have several billion (at least) new universes created by these 'gods'? Each of them with a whole eternity, a heaven and a hell, and with human-alikes with 'eternal souls' that somehow get transferred to 'heaven' on their deaths (and not a computer simulation)?

[MikeH]

Started a thread for it.

[Cort Haus]

Gas + 5bn years = human - we have this already.
Human + 5bn years = god - we do not have the "empirical" evidence for the "god" bit, but we have a ton of circumstatnial one, and also we have very good reasons why we cannot prove him empirically.

Case closed

This is a bizarre extrapolation, to put it mildly.

First, is the suggestion that us still-relatively-unsophisticated primates (who have only just got over the notion that digital watches are a pretty neat idea) are somehow halfway along the time-line to deity - whatever that is. Not sure how that's calculated.

Second, this hypothetical deity, although poorly defined, is frequently credited with the ability to conjure universes up on a whim - presumably because it has nothing better to do and must be rather bored with being omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and all the rest but with no actual universe(s) to exercise these super powers over. I'm not sure how humans-becoming-god fits in here. Do they create a universe to to lord it over too? What will the original god feel about this? Perhaps retirement to pipe & slippers.

Third, I'm not sure where this 'ton of circumstantial evidence' is other than in people's imaginations.

As for "case closed". Welcome back AAHZ

[Cort Haus]

WTF WOULD YOU GO TO CARDIFF???

ARE YOU MAD?

There used to be Cup Finals there a few years back while Wembley Stadium was being rebuilt.

Other than that, there is a castle worth a look, and an even better one just up the road. Not sure if you've ever seen such a thing though.

[Cort Haus]

Does anyone ever talk to Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons?

I just shut the door or don't open it, depending on if it's obvious who they are.

There is a case, though, for the stout, resolute and hard-headed among us to do the socially-responsible and charitable thing and talk to them for a while. The longer we do this, while being impervious to any influence ourselves, the more of the predator's time we take up, thus possibly sparing some potentially weaker victim down the road from falling into their clutches.

Of course, being socially-responsible and charitable is entirely a personal decision for the individual, and in no way am I suggesting that such behaviour should be mandatory.